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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:52 pm 
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why not make a open wheel racing series based on racing itself rather than comercial agreements and tv rights, no radio, telemetry and road car technology, only drivers and cars that are up to unreliability

something like a communist racing series

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:27 pm 
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Williams treating their drivers like little children. All that micro-managing seems really unnecessary.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:59 pm 
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It is a standard practice for teams to instruct drivers to let the quicker attack a car ahead if the slower is not able to overtake. That's not micro managing the drivers, that's attempting to achieve the best result possible for the team... which Felipe stood in the way of.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:06 pm 
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I really doubt Bottas would have got through, though. Massa may have defied instructions but he had a point - if Bottas was that much faster than him, he'd have got past. If he wasn't going to pass Massa, he wasn't going to pass Button either


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:11 pm 
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That's not the point though, it's the principle of the matter which is Massa has undeminied the teams authority, presumably Massa is being paid by the team rather than bringing money, so he should do what he is paid to do, even if that does not mean his best interests are the first priority.

Just wait till the roles are reversed and he whines about Bottas not being the team player... the fact that Bottas would not have been any more successful than Massa had been is immaterial in relation to the main issue.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:15 pm 
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Half Schumacher used to do the same as well, at a couple of GPs he would bitch over the team radio because Patrick Head asked him to let Montoya have a go at attacking the cars ahead.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:16 pm 
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James B wrote:
if Bottas was that much faster than him, he'd have got past. If he wasn't going to pass Massa, he wasn't going to pass Button either


My thoughts exactly

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:18 pm 
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Ian-S wrote:
That's not the point though, it's the principle of the matter which is Massa has undeminied the teams authority, presumably Massa is being paid by the team rather than bringing money, so he should do what he is paid to do, even if that does not mean his best interests are the first priority.

Just wait till the roles are reversed and he whines about Bottas not being the team player... the fact that Bottas would not have been any more successful than Massa had been is immaterial in relation to the main issue.


If the team's instructions were to drive off a cliff, should he do it?

Say he had let him through. The team say they would have asked Bottas to let Massa back through. But what if Bottas then disobeyed team orders and didn't do as he was asked (which is probably what would have happened)? People would no doubt be supporting Bottas for being "ruthless" and blaming Massa for moving over and "losing his competitive edge". Massa's in a lose-lose situation

I don't like Massa but I don't think he had a choice. A completely idiotic decision by the team which just opened them up to one of their drivers disobeying them


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:22 pm 
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I doubt you'd find a cliff to drive off at one of these tracks ;) (Can't you come up with a better argument?).

Had that scenario played out, then Massa would have every right next time to say no, and nobody would blame him, and honestly, I doubt anybody would be calling him weak for playing the team game first time around. They are only 2 races in and Massa is playing the shit stirring dwarf already, I can't see Frank putting up with that for very long, dunno if his daughter has the same attitude though.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:52 pm 
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Ian-S wrote:
I doubt anybody would be calling him weak for playing the team game first time around.


We're only a year on from people calling Mark Webber weak (or words to that effect) for having the temerity to be overtaken by a team mate who was disobeying team orders. People come up with all kinds of cack to defend their favourites, and Bottas seems to be more popular than Massa. I'm pretty sure he was going to be blamed whatever happened. Best be blamed for being strong than for being weak, especially as Williams are hardly going to sack him

Personally, I think we're in a situation where drivers can't trust each other any more. Go back 20 or more years and the unwritten rules of racing still influenced driver conduct. They got torn up by Schumacher and Vettel. Now it's a free-for-all. I don't think Massa could have trusted Bottas

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:16 pm 
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And expecting a teammate to pull over for another teammate is a shitty aspect of the sport, so I hope you're right and drivers don't play along in the future.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:16 pm 
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James B wrote:
Now it's a free-for-all.


Oh so NOW it is a free-for-all... we'll just ignore instances of Imola 1982 and Brazil 1981 shall we?

Team orders are part of the fabric of the sport. Moss knew where his paycheck was coming from, so did Peterson, as did Villeneuve. People seem to pretend or believe they are new and shouldn't be considered as a worthwhile part of what is and always has been a TEAM sport.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:33 pm 
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kals wrote:
James B wrote:
Now it's a free-for-all.


Oh so NOW it is a free-for-all... we'll just ignore instances of Imola 1982 and Brazil 1981 shall we?

Team orders are part of the fabric of the sport. Moss knew where his paycheck was coming from, so did Peterson, as did Villeneuve. People seem to pretend or believe they are new and shouldn't be considered as a worthwhile part of what is and always has been a TEAM sport.


I'm not saying I like the fact that it's a free-for-all. But it does seem as if we're heading to a point where drivers are just going to disobey their teams if they feel the team isn't going to punish them. That's the problem that Massa faced - if he didn't feel he'd be heavily punished by Williams for disobeying team orders, he knew that Bottas would probably also feel the same way (because Bottas isn't an idiot) and would thus likely disobey them himself

It's an issue of trust, and the trust has largely disappeared from racing. When drivers are being encouraged to be increasingly ruthless (because being ruthless is "what makes a great champion" - see Senna, A; Schumacher, M), it's also fostering suspicion of other drivers - "if I let him through, is he going to return to the favour or is he just going to scamper off into the distance and laugh at me at the end of it? Do I really want to be taken for a sucker like that?"

Of course disobeying team orders happened in the past, but I think this is a different set of circumstances - essentially this came down to whether Massa thought Bottas 1) was capable of passing Button and 2) would let him back through if he didn't succeed, and clearly the answer to both was that he didn't think he would. And heck, if you thought that way, then yeah, it's logical to ignore the team orders

It's all game theory - it becomes the logical choice to betray your partner if you don't trust him, because it's the only way you can guarantee success


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:41 pm 
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So let me get this straight, your basing this on the fact that you think Bottas would not have given the place back had he been told to by the team? How do you know that?

Obviously we'll never know now because Bottas will not play ball now given what happened, but what are you basing your assumption on? Has he ignored team orders before?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:48 pm 
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For about the past 10 years or so it has become acceptable and standard for drivers to ignore team instructions. Fans seem to think it is correct practice and even go some way to sympathise with a "victim", despite that driver being in the wrong. At no point is it acceptable to ignore team instructions. It is written into drivers contracts that they will obey instructions given by the team, when it is in the best interest for the team to give such an instruction. This is not a new item in drivers contracts, it has been there for decades with many many drivers. Now in my line of work, and I'm sure in most others, if you fail to obey certain instructions then there is a penalty. Be it written warning, financial implication or dismissal. F1 drivers should not believe they are immune to this. You do not bite the hand that feeds.

Massa's issue is that he feels that he will once again be a number 2 driver by succumbing to a team instruction. Far from it. The instruction on Sunday was to achieve the best possible result for Williams (P6 & P8). Now Bottas may not have gotten past Button, but he may have done. Williams wanted to see if he could. Those lost points, or potential lost points, could come back to haunt Williams at the end of the season. If Massa had let Bottas through and Bottas failed, then P7 and P8 was the best possible result Williams could have achieved. Instead we've got a situation where Williams has lost potential points because of Massa's pride and ignorance. That's not a clever situation to be in when there's an alternative quick, younger and cheaper Brazilian waiting in the wings.

The final point is that you cannot assume what Bottas would have done if he hadn't got past Button. That's not up for discussion because he was never given the chance.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:50 pm 
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Well you could say he probably won't move over for Massa in future. Just wait for Massa to be whining on the radio about it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:30 am 
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Gary Anderson is spot on with this article. He says drivers need to co-operate when it is in the best interests of achieving the best results for the team, as it is a team game. But he also says that while Massa was wrong with his behaviour, Williams made a couple of key strategic errors during the race.

Autosport.com wrote:
Gary Anderson: Why F1 needs team orders
AUTOSPORT's technical expert GARY ANDERSON has vast experience of calling the shots from the pitwall, and he explains why team orders still have a place in F1

By Gary Anderson
AUTOSPORT technical expert


Felipe Massa's refusal to obey an order from the Williams pitwall to let team-mate Valtteri Bottas past in the closing stages of the Malaysian Grand Prix earned him plenty of sympathy and the team a huge amount of criticism.

But this was very different from what Massa experienced at Ferrari, where there was a driver with clear number-one status no matter what the circumstances.

The problem is, if a driver doesn't respect team orders, the team is sacrificing potential points and there can be very serious consequences in terms of results not just in one race, but for the whole year.

Williams was simply responding to race circumstances. The FW36 was quicker than Jenson Button's McLaren and all the team wanted to do was to get one or both of its cars ahead, irrespective of what order they were in.

There's always a fine line to tread when using team orders, but when one car is potentially quicker than the other, you have to think about releasing them.

It's about far more than just one driver's result compared to the other, it's about the team. By letting Bottas have a go at Button, there was the possibility that seventh and eighth could have been turned into sixth and eighth, or even sixth and seventh.

Come the end of the season, if you pick up a place or two in the constructors' championship because of a few extra points, that's worth money which should allow you to produce an even better car for the drivers to benefit from next year.

It's up to the drivers not to put their egos ahead of the interests of the team. And as long as any orders are issued in the right way and based on the race situation, drivers have to accept that while it might hurt now, it will pay back later on when the roles are reversed.

Let's say you have a situation where one driver is catching the other at a significant rate. Once he gets within 1.5-2 seconds, he's losing downforce, hurting his tyres and giving up performance. If he's significantly faster than the car ahead, there's no reason why that performance won't continue if he's let past.

So you either order him to sit two seconds behind to avoid slowing himself down, which we saw Red Bull do with Daniel Ricciardo, or you make sure he gets through quickly so that you can use the speed of the car.

What the team has to do is recognise these situations and react to them straight away, because you lose your advantage if you don't get them past quickly.

We saw Williams suffering with that in Malaysia. During the first stint, it ended up with Massa sat behind Kevin Magnussen and Bottas sat behind Massa.

There was no point in Massa sitting right behind Magnussen for lap after lap; he would have been better off dropping back, working out where the advantage was and then attacking.

Magnussen had a damaged front wing, so it should have been possible for Massa to press home the advantage.

Instead, Massa sat behind him, with Bottas right behind him, so all the two cars were doing was slowing themselves down, losing time following Magnussen and dropping well behind Button, who was seven seconds up the road by the time his McLaren team-mate got out of the way of Massa and Bottas by pitting.

When you have a situation like Williams does between drivers, it can have bigger consequences. I remember being in similar circumstances in the 1997 Argentinian Grand Prix when I was at Jordan, when Ralf Schumacher and Giancarlo Fisichella collided.

Giancarlo made a small mistake at the exit of a corner and Ralf decided to take advantage. He made a late move into a right-hander, Giancarlo turned in and they made contact. Ralf survived and finished third, but Giancarlo was out.

We were still very content with finishing third, as we were a small team and it was only the fourth time a Jordan had finished on the podium. But Ralf did get a talking to after the race. He said the guy made a mistake and he tried to take advantage, but Giancarlo turned in on him. So it was all a bit tit for tat.

I blamed Ralf for trying, but also believed Fisi should have been willing to give up the corner because he was the one who made the mistake. But as well as the fact that it put one car out of the race, the big problem was the relationship between them afterwards: Fisi just lost confidence in Ralf and suddenly they wouldn't work together.

The race engineers sided with their drivers and suddenly there was no co-operation. You'd see engineers going off and doing things under the counter in their own way.

So you sit them down and tell them that's not how it's going to work, but you've lost that free-flow of information and instead it's about forced sharing. That is a problem.

Maybe next time Bottas won't respect an order like the one he was given early in the race to stay behind Massa. What if he attacks and there's a collision? When you get distrust between team-mates, this can be a serious problem.

We saw it with Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber in Turkey 2010. That was just about the worst-case scenario because it cost Red Bull a one-two finish.

There are few teams in F1 that have an obvious number one and number two. Perhaps you could argue that Vettel and Ricciardo is the clearest example, and that's simply because Sebastian's status as a four-times world champion is significantly higher than Dan's at the moment.

But even then, they can get in each other's way. We saw an example of this in Malaysia after Nico Rosberg had his big moment on the first lap. He looked a sitting duck for at least one Red Bull, maybe both, but they were too busy battling each other to take advantage. If Vettel or Ricciardo had got ahead of Rosberg on the first lap, it would have changed the race.

But as Ricciardo pointed out when Vettel was sitting behind Rosberg, there are times when you want to be up there in case something kicks off and you can make up a place, so it's not always clear-cut.

That's why you need to be respectful of the team. Yes, you are racing your team-mate, but you have to leave a bit more margin and think carefully about what you're doing.

When you've got up to 700 people working for a team, putting a huge amount of effort in, there's nothing worse for them than seeing drivers getting selfish on track and compromising results.

Things are more complicated when it comes to throwing your weight behind one driver. It has to be recognised that at the end of the season, inevitably one will be ahead. Mercedes is in an interesting situation, with Rosberg leading the championship and Lewis Hamilton his main rival.

They are both at similar stages in their career, but assuming Mercedes is dominant, one of them has to be second and you can't just alternate wins.

Hamilton has two pole positions, which shows he has the speed. Would he have won in Melbourne? Maybe, which means you might have had two races with Hamilton first and Rosberg second.

If Red Bull gets more competitive and becomes a championship threat, do you decide that Lewis is your shot?

Remember, too, that with double points at the end of the season a rival team and driver can just hang on and nick it at the final race. Winning championships is not easy, and we have seen them lost to a failure of team management.

What you can't do is ignore the issue and assume everything will sort itself out. That's where things can spiral out of control. There will be times where you need your drivers to co-operate to the advantage of the team, and they must accept this will be the case. As Bottas himself said after the race, maybe you will score more points as a team that way.

But Mercedes remains in a very strong position and it could be a while before another team is able to threaten them. The wet qualifying sessions have distorted the competitive order, so it's interesting to look at outright performance in the early races to see how things really stack up.

At every race, I take the fastest single lap by each driver/team and convert it into a percentage of the outright quickest, which allows you to equally weight the 19 race weekends.

If you use pure lap time, gaps at a longer track like Sepang will inevitably be bigger even if, relatively speaking, they might be the same as at a shorter track. Here's how the team order stacks up at the front of the field:

1. Mercedes, 100.000%
2. Ferrari, 100.976%
3. Red Bull, 101.049%
4. McLaren, 101.453%
5. Williams, 101.422%

A one per cent deficit equates to a second around a 1m40s lap, which is roughly where Sepang sits, so there's still a long way to go for the rest. Red Bull looks to have a superb car aerodynamically, but the wet qualifying sessions have definitely helped it to start in stronger positions.

The peak power of the Renault engine isn't so strong, which is a big problem in qualifying when you can use the maximum fuel flow rate and ideally a full 4MJ of ERS around the lap.

Once you're into the race and the fuel consumption has to be a little lower and the ERS is restricted by the fact you can only harvest 2MJ per lap from the rear brakes, plus whatever you can get from the MGU-H attached to the turbo, things close up.

So it will be a while before Mercedes is seriously challenged, and the team has to ensure it maximises its potential, starting with another one-two in Bahrain this weekend.

But as Williams showed with Bottas and Massa, problems can arise if your drivers don't buy into the fact that it's a team game. That's something Mercedes will have to watch out for, because there will come a time when situations have to be managed.

As for Williams, it says the situation has been resolved; there was a proper discussion on Sunday night, so things weren't allowed to fester.

But keep an eye out for signs of similar problems in the future, whether it's Massa and Bottas not co-operating, or the team compromising its potential by letting its drivers fight each other.

I've been up on that pitwall calling the shots in situations like these and it's not easy.

But while on the outside, team orders appears to be a case of favouring one driver over the other, it's actually about giving both the best chance to get the best results for themselves and, more importantly, the team over the entire season.

After all, results are what it's all about.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:58 am 
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Ian-S wrote:
So let me get this straight, your basing this on the fact that you think Bottas would not have given the place back had he been told to by the team? How do you know that?

Obviously we'll never know now because Bottas will not play ball now given what happened, but what are you basing your assumption on? Has he ignored team orders before?


I don't know much about Bottas on a personal level, but if Massa didn't let him through, that suggests he didn't trust him to let Massa back through. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure Massa would have let him go

Massa's not an idiot. He's not going to disobey team orders for the sake of it. He has a history of being a team player. I'm sure he'd have let Bottas through if he knew he could catch and pass Button or that he'd get the place back if he didn't. That he didn't let Bottas through suggests he thought neither of these things would happen, Why that is I don't know, but Massa knows Bottas better than any of us here and if he thinks Bottas wouldn't let him back through, that implies Bottas probably wasn't going to let him back through

Williams put Massa in a very difficult position. I don't think this is just another regular team order situation - it's not like asking a driver to stay behind his team mate, or asking one to move aside for another for a permanent change in the order, because there's an added condition on it which requires the co-operation of the other driver. It's not just about listening to the team but listening to the team and hoping your team mate also listens to the team. I can't remember a situation like this in F1, certainly with so few laps to go

In an ideal world, there's no issue, but clearly it wasn't. It suggests that there was already something not quite right within the Williams team before the incident even happened


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:01 am 
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Don't forget the shitstorm last year that was created by one driver not obeying his team order....

While personally as a racing fan I would rather there were no team orders and it was an every man for himself type of situation, by now, with a heavy heart I've come to realise that they're a part of the sport as much as anything else and if there's a good reason for them (driver behind having a potentially faster car and can be released to get a better result, NOT a dominant team decide to let their dominant driver win the race for no reason when he already has one hand on the title...FERRARI! ) then they should be issued.
The important point is that the driver is not the team manager. If the team has had a meeting and issues the order, it is not the drivers job to overrule that, the people back at base probably know a lot more than the driver in question about the relative performance of both their cars.

HOWEVER. In this situation I can also completely understand Massa's viewpoint. I'm sure after so long of being Ferrari's number 2 he reacted to the order with dismay along the lines of "it's happening againnnnnn arghhhh!"
I'm sure his disobeying of them was as much as a statement from him to the team of "no, not this time, not me, not from you, not going through this again" than it was about Bottas being released to fight Button.

Hopefully now the red mist has descended and he's had a debrief with the team he can asses the situation more clearly.
In hindsight he might realise that if he'd let Valtteri through he'd have got the place back eventually, either following him passed Button or on the last lap back from the other Williams. The team were gambling with a few more points and he denied them the opportunity to roll the dice.

So, IMO this whole thing happened because Massa is so damn sensitive about the team orders issue and with his history its hard not to sympathise.
Now he's able to asses the situation clearly and the team can fully explain their intentions without the pressure of a race going on to confuse the issue, the telling point will be how he reacts should the same situation come up again.
Perhaps he'll be more mature about the decision next time?

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:03 am 
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The main reason why I dislike what Massa did is because he was complaining to the pitwall early on about Bottas attacking him. Which is basically asking for the "team" to "order" Bottas to stay put


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