2014 Random F1 Discussion

Антон · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:42 pm

De Cesaris fan wrote:

I think the cars this year are the hardest they've been to drive for a while. In Hungary alone we saw at least 4 incidents with drivers putting the power down too hard and losing the back end.

I had a little deja vu from good times during this race

momo1911 · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:01 pm

Scotty wrote:

No character? Alonso, Massa and several other drivers have called the 2014 cars the hardest they've driven. No power? Power isn't everything. Felipe Massa was hitting more than 330km/h at A1 Ring on his pole lap. Even the 2004 big winged V10's weren't hitting that speed back at the A1=Ring then. Cars at Monza will possibly be hitting 360km/h if geared properly.

I said the engines have little to no character, not the cars. They have character, it's just the character of a mutant racing Prius. Sure the cars are faster around corners and capable of going fast in a straight line. Doesn't mean the drivetrain has a favorable driver feedback characteristic, or that the engines are inherently more impressive than some of the engines of the past.

Does anybody really believe that today's 1.6l v6 turbos are, on their own merit, a more impressive display of mechanical engineering than, say,

1. 90's Ferrari V12
2. 00's BMW V10
3. 80's TAG 1.5l v6 turbo (750 hp in race tune)
4. 90's Mercedes V10
5. 90's Mugen V10
6. 60's BRM H16
7. DFV V8 (nothing crazy about it but they used it for 30 years straight in one form or another)
8. 80's Renault 1.5l v6 turbo
9. 80's Honda 1.5l v6 turbo

BrainPain · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:11 pm

Am I the only fan who doesn't care even the slightest what kind of engine they run?

momo1911 · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:14 pm

BrainPain wrote:

Am I the only fan who doesn't care even the slightest what kind of engine they run?

What if they were 100hp 2 liter fours straight out of street cars? Now that might get interesting...

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:19 pm

BrainPain wrote:

Am I the only fan who doesn't care even the slightest what kind of engine they run?

I only care when each constructor has their own engine supplier, not one supplier for 5 teams

Антон · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:24 pm

BrainPain wrote:

Am I the only fan who doesn't care even the slightest what kind of engine they run?

Modern F1 it`s a just Bernie`s show, if something goin wrong they just change the tires or forbade something else :roll:

I don't see any point where the Formula 1 became better with Berney since 1991.

momo1911 · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:30 pm

Антон wrote:

Modern F1 it`s a just Bernie`s show, if something goin wrong they just change the tires or forbade something else :roll:

I don't see any point where the Formula 1 became better with Berney since 1991.

+1

Slam · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:50 pm

momo1911 wrote:

Does anybody really believe that today's 1.6l v6 turbos are, on their own merit, a more impressive display of mechanical engineering than, say,

1. 90's Ferrari V12
2. 00's BMW V10
3. 80's TAG 1.5l v6 turbo (750 hp in race tune)
4. 90's Mercedes V10
5. 90's Mugen V10
6. 60's BRM H16
7. DFV V8 (nothing crazy about it but they used it for 30 years straight in one form or another)
8. 80's Renault 1.5l v6 turbo
9. 80's Honda 1.5l v6 turbo

Well yes, acually, because the current engines are a darn sight more reliable than most of those engines! And coupled to the current energy recovery systems, this years engines are actually an amazing display of mechanical engineering.

ptclaus98 · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:56 pm

momo1911 wrote:

Scotty wrote:

No character? Alonso, Massa and several other drivers have called the 2014 cars the hardest they've driven. No power? Power isn't everything. Felipe Massa was hitting more than 330km/h at A1 Ring on his pole lap. Even the 2004 big winged V10's weren't hitting that speed back at the A1=Ring then. Cars at Monza will possibly be hitting 360km/h if geared properly.

I said the engines have little to no character, not the cars. They have character, it's just the character of a mutant racing Prius. Sure the cars are faster around corners and capable of going fast in a straight line. Doesn't mean the drivetrain has a favorable driver feedback characteristic, or that the engines are inherently more impressive than some of the engines of the past.

Does anybody really believe that today's 1.6l v6 turbos are, on their own merit, a more impressive display of mechanical engineering than, say,

1. 90's Ferrari V12
2. 00's BMW V10
3. 80's TAG 1.5l v6 turbo (750 hp in race tune)
4. 90's Mercedes V10
5. 90's Mugen V10
6. 60's BRM H16
7. DFV V8 (nothing crazy about it but they used it for 30 years straight in one form or another)
8. 80's Renault 1.5l v6 turbo
9. 80's Honda 1.5l v6 turbo

Considering that they're likely the culmination of all that engineering, but simply limited to arbitrary standards, yes. Yes I do believe that on their own merit they are a "more impressive display of mechanical engineering".

momo1911 · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:11 pm

ptclaus98 wrote:

Considering that they're likely the culmination of all that engineering, but simply limited to arbitrary standards, yes. Yes I do believe that on their own merit they are a "more impressive display of mechanical engineering".

That's the problem right there. Open up the rules a little. Teams are going to spend too much money no matter what the rules are. Companies are good at doing specific things. Some teams are better at adapting than others. Why should we force all the teams to adapt to an arbitrary set of regulations that is questionably intentioned? Ferrari does v12's best. BMW does inline six. Chevy does split-crank v8's. Toyota does nice smooth v8's. Ford excels at turbo v6's. Porsche builds awesome flat 12's and flat 6's. Subaru would love to build an F1 boxer 4, I'm sure. Mazda could definitely build a capable rotary engine. Renault seems able to adapt. Mercedes seems to be able to adapt. Honda would build a great inline 4. We could even throw hybrids and pure electric into the mix. But it's not really in the spirit of F1 racing to say, whoever builds the best tiny turbo v6 can supply the better half of the field.

Anyways, thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion! Always nice to get a better sense of perspective on these kinds of things.

StanV · PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:25 pm

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/f1/ad ... itting-f1/

Quote:

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[...]
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[...]
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Juihi · PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:12 am

Scotty wrote:

Cars at Monza will possibly be hitting 360km/h if geared properly.

They have fixed gear ratios this year I think?

micha · PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:56 am

Didn't Ferrari ditch the V12 in favor of the V10 because it had a better weight to power ratio? I seem to recall they switched before it was mandatory.

ellis · PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:50 am

Ferrari moved in 1996, whilst V12s were banned for 2001 (which is why Toyota delayed a year and entered in 2002).

Ferrari moved from V12 to V10 when the engine size dropped from 3.5L to 3.0L for 1995. Their 1995 3.0L V12 wasn't very good and the smaller capacity didn't suit the V12s.

Bleu · PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:50 am

Not sure about that but V12 was using more fuel than V10.

kals · PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 12:38 pm

Manufacturers enter under the rules set in existence. They are not going to enter using a unique engine configuration (assuming rules are open) unless they know they are going to be be competitive. And even then, let's assume someone builds something new and different (a W12 for instance) and that engine happens to be better than everything else, all that will happen is the other manufacturers will follow suit and design the same engine... or will quit F1. It has happened many times before (turbo, V12, V10...) and will happen again.

In 80's it was have a turbo or struggle with a V8 (typically a DFV). V10's weren't really in existence in F1 until 1989 when the new engine rules came in and that set the scene for many years to come. Only 3 manufacturers tried V12s and two quit by the end of 1992. Apart from a few V8s, V10s have been pretty much the go-to engine unit since then and that was when engine rules were open.

To assume that many manufacturers would enter F1 if engine rules were open and it allowed them to build something unique to them it utterly ridiculous. That's an assumption based on no fact.

EDIT - Just seen Scotty said something similar but with less words.

micha · PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:06 pm

IIRC it's 4 manufacturers. 1 is obviously Ferrari. Honda ran V12's. Porsche's half-arsed attempt in 1991 with Footwork/Arrows was a V12 and Lamborghini ran a good part of the early 90's with a V12.

/edit: while looking at some info I found out Yamaha also ran a V12. So that makes 5. Of which only 2 where succesfull however.

Ferrari and Honda both switched to the better V10's. Porsche and Lamborghini probably lacked the funds back then to do a proper job or they just where too impatient to get there.
Lambo (under Chrysler's flag iirc) did however test with McLaren in 1993 to replace Honda but we all know how that ended

ellis · PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:09 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/j ... rld-photos

Max Mosley is suing Google because there are photos of him at an orgy wearing a nazi uniform, with hookers.

Probably could avoid these situations by not wearing nazi uniforms and socialising with hookers, but what do I know?

Tobias · PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:11 pm

he could also simply ask to remove the content, which is possible since a short time now.

mclaren2008 · PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:13 pm

Apparently Senna would have driven for McLaren in 94 if they'd kept the Lambo engine, he was that impressed.

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