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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:27 pm 
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kals wrote:
phil1993 wrote:
Bottas is already going there next year anyway, unless Senna pulls a miracle out of the bag.

I think this is one of the circuits where you need confidence, an attacking mentality and skill. I mean, look at the four winners: Alonso twice, Vettel and Hamilton. Maldonado 2nd and Senna 17th is probably reflective of their pure pace.

I admit that going from GP3 to F1 is risky, but would he be worse than Senna? That's the issue and it's a big one for Williams. Senna's problem is that his performances won't have captured the eye of any team bosses. I think he'd make a bloody good Le Mans driver though.


Absolutely Bottas would be worse than Senna, and that statement alone pretty much shows how little people know Senna. 17th Senna's pure pace? That's pure rubbish. He was pretty decent in FP despite his scrapes and was on for a similar performance to Hungary.

Senna hasn't had the best F1 career but he's always had things against him...

- HRT, signed by Campos but not wanted by the new owners or management, so given second fiddle treatment throughout the year
- Renault, signed as test driver and given seat "vacated" by Heidfeld and despite almost no track time scored a couple of decent quali and race results
- Williams, signed as stop-gap before Bottas comes onboard, very good races (largely forgotten) in Malaysia and China and then scored good low-end points throughout the season despite continuous questions about his pace versus Maldonado

In F3 and GP2 Senna was always highly regarded and seen as a talent for the future, Maldonado despite being in the junior ranks for many years prior wasn't. They are both very good drivers.


You forgot the biggest one of all; screwed out of a seat in the BGP 001 by Honda pulling the plug.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Good point and well said.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:56 pm 
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kals wrote:
One day people will realise that to be fantastic, you need to have an end product to prove that. Those drivers are Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton. In his junior racing days Maldonado was quick but utterly reckless. In his F1 days he is exactly the same.

Now if Maldonado was dominating Senna in races as well as quali, I'd have a different opinion. Maldonado has scored 30 points in his F1 career, across just three points scoring finishes. That strike rate is anything other than fantastic. Williams will have to soon realise (which I'd be surprised if they haven't) that Maldonado's investment needs to show some serious returns (points mean $$$) or they'll have to reassess whether his Venezuelan $'s are worth the seat time.


Of course, and if we're still talking about Maldonado throwing away a bagful of points in 2013, I'd seriously consider his position in F1. And of course, Maldonado is no Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel

And yes, Senna does seem to have kicked a black cat under a ladder, while cracking a mirror in terms of luck. Both career wise and in 2012. I mean, he got run into in Valencia and somehow got the penalty. He was also the only one whose garage exploded this season.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:26 pm 
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I think his luck has followed him throughout his career, so 2012 is no exception to the norm...

2006 - Leading British F3 championship (in only second season of car racing), a wayward Mexican sends him skywards and into the Snetterton bridge... loses bag full of points and sweet spot of car setup (through rebuild) and title goes to Mike Conway
2008 - In serious contention for GP2 title (in only fourth season of car racing), a wayward dog finds his front suspension in Turkey, loses multiple wins and good finishes thanks to horrendous reliability, suffers bullshit penalty at Spa and title goes to Giorgio Pantano
2009 - Expected to be signed as team mate to Jenson Button at Honda F1 only for Honda to pull out, spends the season in LMES and loses Brawn F1 spot to Rubens Barrichello

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:29 pm 
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He is rather unfortunate. Speaking of that Snetterton crash, there's a funny story that the Autosport and MN journalists watching the race were right where Senna crashed. One guy saw it and started running, the other was looking the wrong way :lol:

And his HRT season in 2010 was ridiculous in terms of how much he was unfavoured.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:34 pm 
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phil1993 wrote:
And yes, Senna does seem to have kicked a black cat under a ladder, while cracking a mirror in terms of luck. Both career wise and in 2012. I mean, he got run into in Valencia and somehow got the penalty. He was also the only one whose garage exploded this season.



He's probably the only driver of almost every excisting racing series for nearly two decades who's garage has exploded.

He's been unlucky and he's done his mistakes at very bad moments for him. Imagine him being in Q3 at Spain, that might have ended up with double podium for Williams. Or today, he could have been in the top10, almost making it sure that he would score points.

But his luck is not his biggest problem. He just isn't as fast as Maldonado, who isn't concidered to be one of the top-notch names like Schumacher, Alonso, Vettel, Räikkönen or Hamilton. Add Bruno's luck and inconsistency and you can't really say he's future in F1 is secured. We had our A Senna long time ago and his ironically "just" a B Senna. Saying that, you have to give him a big credit for being in F1 in the first place after starting his racing career at so late age. He's not bad, not at all, he's just not "one of the best" drivers in the grid, which is probably having the most highest standard of all times.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:36 pm 
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When you say inconsistency, what do you mean?

He's finished in the points 7 times out of 13 races, that's hardly inconsistent. Inconsistent is his team-mate...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:40 pm 
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kals wrote:
When you say inconsistency, what do you mean?

He's finished in the points 7 times out of 13 races, that's hardly inconsistent. Inconsistent is his team-mate...



I meant his occasional mistakes at bad moments for him. And this weekend he has been nothing but inconsistent compared to a guy named Pastor Maldonado (who's done no mistakes so far). This gives me a feeling that he has probably one or two races of time to show he's worth of keeping for Williams. Eventhough I want to see Bottas in F1, I don't want to see Senna to leave.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:18 pm 
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Maldonado, no mistakes?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:45 pm 
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Pastor won't score tomorrow, Senna will.

Its a shame Williams can't afford to dump Pastor for Bottas next season.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Quote:
Q. (Ian Parkes - PA) Lewis, we've not seen too much emotion from you when you've got out of the car, either here today or following the victory in Italy. I'm just wondering if there's any particular reason for that.

LH: No, I'm pretty happy.

Q. (Ian Parkes - PA) Really? Because you don't seem to be.

LH: I am.


*sigh*

Drivers were asked about any changes to the track. Vettel said the Sling needs changing as it's one of the worst corner of the season for safety.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:57 pm 
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I have heard it might rain tomorrow?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:59 pm 
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The sling is unique, but a bit silly, because just a couple of cm's off and you get launched over kerbs. That would be forgiveable if it was a corner you had to attack to get right, but it isn't, it's all a bit worthless. But as Brundle said, there's no run off there, so it's a difficult one to fix.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Gaara wrote:
Maldonado, no mistakes?



No mistakes (so far) this weekend.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:10 pm 
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NVirkkula wrote:
Gaara wrote:
Maldonado, no mistakes?



No mistakes (so far) this weekend.


Jinxed :lol: !


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:22 pm 
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The sling is a necessary evil if they want F1 cars to use that section of the roads plus the Anderson Bridge.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:46 pm 
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They could just turn it into an ordinary 90-degree bend so that it sorts the men from the corpses.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:52 pm 
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Image

They could do something like this, but could require cutting some of those trees down to make runoff.

Edit: Actually, fuck it, the bit before the exit of the sling is way too narrow, a car barely fits in.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 10:57 pm 
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ryan86 wrote:
They could just turn it into an ordinary 90-degree bend so that it sorts the men from the corpses.


What do you think this is... 1990? ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 11:24 pm 
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kals wrote:
phil1993 wrote:
I know Senna is a good driver. I don't doubt that. He's competent. But he's nothing utterly fantastic, which Maldonado can be.


I don't disagree with the first part, but I do with the logic behind the second.

One day people will realise that to be fantastic, you need to have an end product to prove that. Those drivers are Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton. In his junior racing days Maldonado was quick but utterly reckless. In his F1 days he is exactly the same.

Now if Maldonado was dominating Senna in races as well as quali, I'd have a different opinion. Maldonado has scored 30 points in his F1 career, across just three points scoring finishes. That strike rate is anything other than fantastic. Williams will have to soon realise (which I'd be surprised if they haven't) that Maldonado's investment needs to show some serious returns (points mean $$$) or they'll have to reassess whether his Venezuelan $'s are worth the seat time.


You can make a fast driver more consistent. Especially as most of pastor's mistakes are due to stupidity, not driving errors. Much harder to make a slow driver faster, I'd be keeping pastor.

ellis wrote:
The sling is unique, but a bit silly, because just a couple of cm's off and you get launched over kerbs. That would be forgiveable if it was a corner you had to attack to get right, but it isn't, it's all a bit worthless. But as Brundle said, there's no run off there, so it's a difficult one to fix.


The ferrari challenge crash in the crash video links is not a nice one to watch, don't see why an f1 car couldn't do the same at higher speed. I'm not sure what the solution is, but kerbs don't make the corner that much safer


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