2014 Formula 1 Petronas Malaysia Grand Prix, March 28-30

kals · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:08 am

James - you're totally wrong. Williams didn't put Massa in a difficult position. It is exactly the opposite. Stop trying to justify Massa's defiance. He was wrong with what he did. End of discussion.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:15 am

Well, lock the thread then, discussion is over, Kals has spoken

:mrgreen:

kals · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:18 am

The thing is that some of this discussion is based on assumption and conjecture about hypotheticals. That's pointless. To justify Massa's behaviour and sympathise is silly and unnecessary.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:24 am

Well, I don't know about anyone else but that's part of the reason why I love the sport so much, to get completely involved in it, even hypothetically, debate stuff like this, try to see it from both drivers and then the teams' point of view and then come to a conclusion.

You're right, no-one is bigger than the team and unless they're completely giving out a stupid call, then you must follow their orders, but I do think Massa has a lot of fan sympathy, rightly or wrongly simply because of being Ferrari's bitchboy for so long.

I'd be willing to bet as sad as he probably was to leave Marenello, he was probably thinking something along the lines of
"Welp, I might be heading to a less competitive team, but at least I can race for myself again"
Then, BOOM, in race 2, that bloody team order shit turns up yet again.

As I said before, this was a reaction probably as a result of that, in the white heat of racing action.
Now he's had time to consider his actions rationally, it'll be interesting to see if he changes his attitude over the rest of the season.
If he doesn't he could find himself shown the door.
The team has just got rid of one driver who didn't fancy being a team player, and that guy was bringing them money, so they'll have no problem with finding a replacement for Massa too.

He has to be careful from now on, and personally I think he will.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:28 am

This is part of what I wrote, which follows your thought process.

kals wrote:

Massa's issue is that he feels that he will once again be a number 2 driver by succumbing to a team instruction. Far from it. The instruction on Sunday was to achieve the best possible result for Williams (P6 & P8). Now Bottas may not have gotten past Button, but he may have done. Williams wanted to see if he could. Those lost points, or potential lost points, could come back to haunt Williams at the end of the season. If Massa had let Bottas through and Bottas failed, then P7 and P8 was the best possible result Williams could have achieved. Instead we've got a situation where Williams has lost potential points because of Massa's pride and ignorance. That's not a clever situation to be in when there's an alternative quick, younger and cheaper Brazilian waiting in the wings.

The final point is that you cannot assume what Bottas would have done if he hadn't got past Button. That's not up for discussion because he was never given the chance.

James B · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:32 am

codename_47 wrote:

As I said before, this was a reaction probably as a result of that, in the white heat of racing action.
Now he's had time to consider his actions rationally, it'll be interesting to see if he changes his attitude over the rest of the season.

Actually I think it was an entirely rational decision. Look at his comments after the race:

"What I did was correct. I am trying to do my best for the team and that's the most important thing. I'm sure the result would not have changed even if I had let him by, so it's the same."

He clearly thought that Bottas wouldn't catch and pass Button - and looking at the lap times, he's got a point, because he doesn't seem to be fast enough to make up the ground and get by. Even if it was marginal, Massa clearly didn't think it was worth the risk of not getting the place back from Bottas if he failed to pass Button

This is as much about Bottas as it is about Massa, and I think we're only getting part of the story. Massa's not an idiot

kals · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:36 am

Utter rubbish. What he did and his justification showed he behaved like an idiot. There aren't many ways to skin a cat. How does he know whether Bottas would or would not have got past Button? That's not his decision to make. Nor did he follow the instruction to potentially prove himself right or wrong.

James B · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:45 am

kals wrote:

How does he know whether Bottas would or would not have got past Button?

Because he's an experienced racing driver

Do you really think that after 12 years and nearly 200 races in F1, he'd willingly jeopardise his job and career for the sake of a couple of points out of pure petulance or spite? Come off it. Of all the people on the grid, he is one of the model professionals

kals · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:49 am

Do I really think that after 12 years... etc... Yes I do. And Sunday was a great demonstration that he will still be petulant on occasions. Like I said before, it was not his decision to make. 12 years in F1 or not, that's not a correct behavioral trait to display.

Massa isn't alone, lots of his compatriots behave like petulant children... Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel do it from time to time. That doesn't make it right and no amount of experience allows you to behave that way. Even Rubens was doing that in his final years.

webbsy · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:53 am

Massa had his one shot at passing Button and he blew it, plain and simple. Let Bottas have a crack and if he can't then reverse the positions, plain and simple. Fact is Massa is at the fag end of his career and Bottas is just at the beggining, so if anyone was (and did) going to obey team orders it was Bottas, and most likely would havge conceeded his position back to Massa.

Artur Craft · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:32 pm

kals wrote:

You do realise you're contradicting your own point with the Indycar example, right? Indycar uses "Push-to-Pass", which allowed Will Power to get alongside Takuma Sato and be positioned to attempt to outbreak him. Using your argument and examples, this was also a farcical thing.

I don't like PTP but at least the guy in front can use it too to defend. Obviously, it will only work when the car ahead doesn't use it too, thus making it also farcical, imho. I don't know if only Power used it in that moment, if so, at least it did not give him a free pass. He was still behind in the braking zone and had to risk on the outside. Also, Takuma had proper tyres to defend himself...

@

phil1993, overall your points are indisputable. As you said, in the normal situation, cars would only spread throughout the race as the fastest starts on pole, the second fastest on 2nd and etc...

Good racing always needed "abnormal" situations to put a faster car/driver behind a slower combo. To pick a case linked recently by de Cesaris fan, Senna couldn't compete with Prost or even Schumacher in Silverstone 1993(qualified over 1,5s behind Michael) but, due to the circunstances, ended ahead of both in the race. If there was DRS back then or if Senna had destroyed tyres, that great battle would have never happened. The best overtake ever(Piquet on Senna in Hungary 86), imho, would also have never happened with devices to make overtaking easy. That was an almost impossible move to make, it only worked because Piquet is one of the best drivers ever and managed to pull an amazing move out of the situation

To name one rather recent battle that I liked, Monza 2011 only had that great Schumi/Hamilton fight because DRS wasn't giving Lewis a free pass even on the long straights and Schumacher tyres were on a decent state. Canada 2010 was one of the biggest disgraces to F1, imho, because it gave them ideas to shortcut into a better show to the casual viewer instead of trying to solve the difficulty of having a good battle with wing's relied cars.

PS: and yes, to the relief of those who are tired of this rant, I'm gonna stop with it

kals · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:46 pm

What happened at Canada in 2010?

phil1993 · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:05 pm

kals wrote:

What happened at Canada in 2010?

The Bridgestones were graining, drivers had to make 2/3 stops and we ended up with an exciting race.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:08 pm

Really? Is that it? That's a disgrace? Blimey.

phil1993 · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:13 pm

I'm not the world's biggest fan of DRS, but then there's the counter argument that it's forced drivers to try different approaches. In China 2011, Hamilton was closing in on Vettel but even with DRS was unable to pass. So he waited for turn six, deployed all of his KERS and went around the outside of turn seven.

Or Spain that year, Hamilton was quicker than Vettel as the race neared its conclusion so because of DRS, Vettel made sure every single lap that he nailed the final corner so Hamilton couldn't get near. It was a masterclass in defending, but without DRS he would have needed to do that. So it has cons, but it also has positive points as well.

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:27 pm

some points to add:

-is just the 2nd race of the season, Williams and everybody should carry on because is far from the end, otherwise they'll keep a "small team status"

-radio and telemetry are the great villains of this game, as we could see until it came into F1, drivers would feel the car to see if they could push further to win, and if they didn't it was just a DNF. also that amount of data and levers in the steering wheel should be gone, drivers must focus on the track, not manage a car by pushing buttons

-Massa is not right by disobbeying, neither Williams by using "is faster than you". They should had spoke more clear like "Bottas could push Button to pass, he has better tires, do you agree?"

Ian-S · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:42 pm

There must be something in my tea because I agree with Scotty and Kals, not so much about agreeing with Kals, as that's nothing new, but come on, when have you ever known me and Scotty to share the same opinion on something?

Williams are complete cocks for using the string of words they did though.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:55 pm

Nah I just think you put Vegemite on your toast this morning instead of Marmite.

Soul Reaver · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:10 pm

Massa holding up to his position was the best thing of the year so far, no more.

NVirkkula · PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:35 pm

Scotty wrote:

What Felipe forgets is that it's not all about him. He is one of 300 odd employees at Williams. He should never put his ego in-front of those 300. Just because he might get paid the most, doesn't give him priority, if anything, it's the opposite. You're paid that much money to do your job, and when your managers tell you to do something, you fucking do it.

Want to play an individual sport, play Tennis. This is a team sport for a reason.

Not only that, when Massa is stuck behind Bottas, we know exactly whats going to happen now aren't we? Next time it could be for a podium. Karma is a bitch.

This is exactly the reason why Massa should have obeyed the order. It's the 2nd race of the season, it should not mean anything else than the chance to take away the guy in front by using the faster car to tackle him out of the groove. Massa ignored this and showed his true face in his 2nd race for the team. Bottas is the future for the team, so the team does not take this kindly. In the future Massa will suddenly have "bad strategies" and "slow pitstops" to keep him away of Valtteri, as Felipe is not a team player. You want to take 20M$ away from your team? That's the way you do it. Ignore what ever they're saying.

TBK-Light.com

2014 Formula 1 Petronas Malaysia Grand Prix, March 28-30

Who is online