TBK-Light.com :: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500

westracing01 wrote:

Y'all can bash me all you want but look at this race honestly. We haven't seen anything like this since the IRL days... Is that a bad thing?

Everyone probably has a different opinion between what is sane racing, what is too artificial, and what is too dangerous. To me, the IRL style pack racing, where everyone simply drove around in a tight pack and often couldn't move around, was too artificial and too artificially dangerous, and often dull because no one could actually pass each other.

Many people didn't like the CART Hanford style racing at the time, seeing it as artificial... but I didn't mind that. It kept things close and kind of more like a pre-restrictor plate NASCAR superspeedway event where things were close-ish, but not that close, and draft strategy / slingshots were critical. I've actually enjoyed the Indy formula for the last few years for the same reason.

This was sort of in between the two. It was incredibly exciting on one hand, because everyone *could* actually move around and it wasn't just a line of immovable cars, it was cars darting all over the place and positions changing from time to time. The Hanford type stuff and Indy did seem to allow for a bit more of a comfort zone, here they were rather close for lots of laps after a restart, lots of four wide type stuff, and 250 laps of knife-edge racing like this is

. But it wasn't Vegas / IRL pack racing. When a car crashed, most could get out of the way, there wasn't a huge danger of a 10-15 multicar wreck.

The problem I see is the miserable crowds. IRL style pack racing didn't exactly sell many tickets at many ovals (Texas was one of the few that ever seemed to get good attendance), the Hanford era CART ovals drew miserable crowds as well, and this drew a pathetic crowd. The racing was exciting. But I don't think it makes any business sense, so to speak (at least with the pathetic current management strategies of Indycar.)

Author:	Starlancer [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
I just finished watching my recording of it. That was the best race I have ever seen. That is all.

Author:	electrodevo [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
westracing01 wrote: Y'all can bash me all you want but look at this race honestly. We haven't seen anything like this since the IRL days... Is that a bad thing? Everyone probably has a different opinion between what is sane racing, what is too artificial, and what is too dangerous. To me, the IRL style pack racing, where everyone simply drove around in a tight pack and often couldn't move around, was too artificial and too artificially dangerous, and often dull because no one could actually pass each other. Many people didn't like the CART Hanford style racing at the time, seeing it as artificial... but I didn't mind that. It kept things close and kind of more like a pre-restrictor plate NASCAR superspeedway event where things were close-ish, but not that close, and draft strategy / slingshots were critical. I've actually enjoyed the Indy formula for the last few years for the same reason. This was sort of in between the two. It was incredibly exciting on one hand, because everyone could actually move around and it wasn't just a line of immovable cars, it was cars darting all over the place and positions changing from time to time. The Hanford type stuff and Indy did seem to allow for a bit more of a comfort zone, here they were rather close for lots of laps after a restart, lots of four wide type stuff, and 250 laps of knife-edge racing like this is . But it wasn't Vegas / IRL pack racing. When a car crashed, most could get out of the way, there wasn't a huge danger of a 10-15 multicar wreck. The problem I see is the miserable crowds. IRL style pack racing didn't exactly sell many tickets at many ovals (Texas was one of the few that ever seemed to get good attendance), the Hanford era CART ovals drew miserable crowds as well, and this drew a pathetic crowd. The racing was exciting. But I don't think it makes any business sense, so to speak (at least with the pathetic current management strategies of Indycar.)

Author:	alex1369 [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:07 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Just woke up. I see the race was a thriller. Great for Montoya P4! Mann Indycar can piss big time on todays F1!!

Author:	Sunoco [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:09 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
electrodevo wrote: westracing01 wrote: Y'all can bash me all you want but look at this race honestly. We haven't seen anything like this since the IRL days... Is that a bad thing? Everyone probably has a different opinion between what is sane racing, what is too artificial, and what is too dangerous. To me, the IRL style pack racing, where everyone simply drove around in a tight pack and often couldn't move around, was too artificial and too artificially dangerous, and often dull because no one could actually pass each other. Many people didn't like the CART Hanford style racing at the time, seeing it as artificial... but I didn't mind that. It kept things close and kind of more like a pre-restrictor plate NASCAR superspeedway event where things were close-ish, but not that close, and draft strategy / slingshots were critical. I've actually enjoyed the Indy formula for the last few years for the same reason. This was sort of in between the two. It was incredibly exciting on one hand, because everyone could actually move around and it wasn't just a line of immovable cars, it was cars darting all over the place and positions changing from time to time. The Hanford type stuff and Indy did seem to allow for a bit more of a comfort zone, here they were rather close for lots of laps after a restart, lots of four wide type stuff, and 250 laps of knife-edge racing like this is . But it wasn't Vegas / IRL pack racing. When a car crashed, most could get out of the way, there wasn't a huge danger of a 10-15 multicar wreck. The problem I see is the miserable crowds. IRL style pack racing didn't exactly sell many tickets at many ovals (Texas was one of the few that ever seemed to get good attendance), the Hanford era CART ovals drew miserable crowds as well, and this drew a pathetic crowd. The racing was exciting. But I don't think it makes any business sense, so to speak (at least with the pathetic current management strategies of Indycar.) What kinds of racing does sell tickets at ovals? I'm not sure the package would make much of a difference.

Author:	Racefan4ever [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Only on TBK will people bitch about the best god damn oval race in years.

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Author:	racer612008 [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 6:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Sunoco wrote: What kinds of racing does sell tickets at ovals? I'm not sure the package would make much of a difference. Doesn't matter on the on track product when the race is scheduled at the worse time of the year and isn't promoted as well as it could be. Fontana's date has moved 4 times in 4 years, 2 of those because the series has a change of management that listens to a consulting group and suddenly gets scared of having low television ratings because of pro & college American-rules football (but yet competes with other sports) right after the track got their wanted October date for 2013. Those reasons killed off the Houston round this year because the promoter couldn't get a proper date to host a race in the day, from either the series or venue (couldn't get a early spring date) and couldn't get the backing for temporary lights for a mid-Summer date not counting the possible bad turnout which it had last year. Meanwhile they also say they canned the Baltimore date because "it was going to have too many different date slots due to uncertainty with NFL & MLB schedules" but yet it's the exact thing they are doing the races at Fontana and Milwaukee. (not going to count Pocono as the track itself moved the date in attempts for a better fan turnout on a non holiday weekend)

Author:	Mercedes5CLR [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:54 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
I have been watching indycar racing in it's many forms and today was one of the best races I have ever seen. Yes, it was dangerous and there was way to much blocking going on but this track was wide enough like Michigan to contain this type of event. I also think that Rahal should be penalized. Rule states: If a car takes any pit related items out of the pit box then a drive through penalty should be given. This is not a grey area rule. This rule has been in effect for years. I am glad to see Rahal win though but I wish indycar would have penalized him and then let him work his way back to the front. Overall great race, just think the series Board/officials fucked this up completely. Personally I still miss Beaux Barfield. Only way I see this ship ever to right itself is to put Robbin Miller in charge of officiating. LOL, But kinda true.

Author:	JJ [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Damn, what a race. I regret going to sleep with 40 laps to go, as I knew there would be some huge crash I would miss. But that's exactly the point: a good race makes you regret for not watching. Usually it's backwards, at least when it comes to F1: you should rather have been sleeping, because the race was a total bore. Now the sense of danger is the key which made this race so awesome. We were on our tiptoes to expect something bad to happen. That's the soul of motor racing and when you take that element away, you lose something integral that no other gimmicks can replace (yes, I'm talking about F1 again). Indycar showed what pure racing should be all about. Safety and danger can never come together, but it is always a trade-off of two. The shift has always been towards safety, but have we reached the limit? Can fans, drivers and race directors mutually accept some level of danger? And what is the level? The one we saw yesterday? If not, then what? Should all the classes of motorsport aim at the same level of danger/safety? WEC? MotoGP? WRC?

Author:	mclaren2008 [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Racefan4ever wrote: Only on TBK will people bitch about the best god damn oval race in years. Are you an iRacing member? The iRacing forums are terrible.

Author:	codename_47 [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 10:18 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Dat race I mean we just watched a 90s restrictor plate NASCAR race complete with last lap blowover. As far as the debate goes about safety I cannot decide. It seems these cars and this racing was perfect for this track. There seems to be a huge amount of room for accidents to happen and the fences seem high enough to keep put of the way if the cars do get airbourne. It seems asanine considering its past but I didn't fear this racing like I did Texas. (Sorry Greg ) It reminded me most of cart races at Michigan where the handFord device took the least about of piss and CART used to have its best race of the year. The the track promoly switched to the irl after one of the best races ever in 2001 just as they'd got it right Damn the races this year in indycar have just been superb, if there's any justice in he world it'd be picking up disgruntled nascar viewers by the millions. I wish that would happen It wasn't his day, but what a shame a for AJ "it wasn't my day" Foyt, it wasn't his day.

Author:	Soul Reaver [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Just finished watching it. This was more scary than Vegas, wider track with more groves working. The spotter could say 3 wide, but those 2 other cars could be in a lot of places, no wonder we had that Sato/Power incident. And more, in Vegas, the cars were very close toghether and it was bad when something went wrong, here, it's guys going back and fort in an insane ratio - all the time - and in an insane way - from 5th to 1st making a 4 wide or dodging all. Best racing ever, if they only were stock cars.....

Author:	the ost [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:22 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
I thought the only problem was a lack of respect for cars with new tyres. Unlike Vegas, there's plenty of room to race at Fontana but the cars were weaving all over the place which increased the risk factor.

Author:	RtN [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:25 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
the ost wrote: I thought the only problem was a lack of respect for cars with new tyres. Unlike Vegas, there's plenty of room to race at Fontana but the cars were weaving all over the place which increased the risk factor. Tbh, there was never going to be any respect for any of the competition with 3 laps to go. If you let the guy behind through you're never getting that place back.

Author:	Tom [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Racefan4ever wrote: Only on TBK will people bitch about the best god damn oval race in years. People are bitching about it because they felt bad for enjoying it. No matter what people say, it is exciting watching something that's ultimately death-defying and risky even if the place and the equipment being used is ultimately "safe" (the track and cars are the safest they've ever been under the circumstances of a crash thanks to improved technology etc). The drivers aren't stupid. They have a rough idea as to how things will play out on track given a car's setup or a track's layout. If they really feel like it's unsafe or they begin to feel that the risk to their life outweighs the rewards, they can park the car. But they utilise their free will and choose not to. Why is there not a massive outcry about rallying? I mean, come on. 100mph down a narrow dirt track with fucking massive trees on each side of the track that will not move a fucking inch if they are rammed at full beans in sixth gear. It's insanely dangerous, and each time a car flies down that track safely is a miracle, to be honest. It takes one tyre failure, or tiny miscalculation, and that car is going from 100mph to 0 in around half a second. Or, worse, it's going to fly off the track and flatten a dozen innocent spectators who have committed the crime of wanting to see some cars go past really quickly and have sensibly chosen a spot off the beaten track to get a vantage point from. Why do people not cry out for changes here? Make the cars slower! Regulate the courses so they have a minimum width...or wrap every tree in exploding foam to absorb impacts! PEOPLE MIGHT DIE! I know that since Vegas 2011 everyone is super-sensitive to open-wheel pack racing, and the crash yesterday highlights the previously "unconsidered" danger of having an open cockpit, but at the end of the day you've got exactly the same situation here as you do in rallying: drivers taking big risks for the purposes of progressing their career and coincidentally providing entertainment to those who want it. If the drivers really wanted changes, they can get this done by collective action (i.e. demanding changes from the higher authority) and/or by simply refusing to race. If the fans really wanted changes, they can get this done by turning off the TV/computer/not attending the race. If neither of the above happens, then it can be assumed that nobody actually wants it to be changed because you know what? It's really fucking exciting, heart-pounding stuff, and it's been undertaken by drivers who have used their own free will to opt into it, so you can enjoy it guilt-free from the perspective of worrying about the outcome of any accidents, as long as you yourself are comfortable with the risk you're taking that you might see something that ultimately upsets/shocks you. If you opt in, then don't whine about how unsafe it was and how uncomfortable you were watching it and how dangerous it is. If you find it any of those three things, don't watch it.

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Author:	codename_47 [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
I didn't find it as bad as the irl pack racimg because they could complete passes and overall the pack part of the race was just the last 3 laps It was more handford than restrictor plate Also that was probably the last race at fontana sadly so it's probably not worth stressing over.

Author:	Gaara [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
That's why I respect Conways decision. Some people mocked him for choosing not to race on ovals but he felt too uncomfortable which is understandable considering the big oval crashes he's had. Better to admit you're uncomfortable with the racing and step out then to toodle around in the back like it seems Bourdais did yesterday.

Author:	codename_47 [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Btw was there a lights race yesterday too?

Author:	Chris A [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
No.

Author:	Tom [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Gaara wrote: That's why I respect Conways decision. Some people mocked him for choosing not to race on ovals but he felt too uncomfortable which is understandable considering the big oval crashes he's had. Better to admit you're uncomfortable with the racing and step out then to toodle around in the back like it seems Bourdais did yesterday. Exactly. Given the consecutive experiences he had on ovals, I don't think anyone with a semblance of a heart could blame him from stepping back and saying "You know what? I'm sitting these ones out as this type of racing is not for me".

Author:	Schumifan [ Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 2015 MAVtv/American Real 500
Good post. There are times where clearly the risk is unnecessary and something has to be done about it - that was Vegas. I don't think the same can be said about yesterday. The drivers did have room yesterday to move their cars around and avoid bad situations, the fact that most of them chose not to use that room was entirely their own choice. Both the big crashes yesterday were caused by drivers all trying to squeeze themselves into the same third of the track. I know that some people might say that it's the series organisers duty to protect the drivers from themselves - but why? To draw a comparison, no one was crying about safety when Felix Baumgartner chucked himself into outer space a couple of years ago. From what I remember, he was pretty much hailed as a hero for taking a ridiculous risk in pursuit of doing something amazing, for no other reason than doing something amazing. Why are racing drivers no longer seen in that regard? Why are we intent on reducing what they do to something barely more dangerous than what the average man on the street experiences on his way to work? Again, I'm not asking for a return to Vegas-style pack racing. That was stupid, unnecessary, and the risks clearly outweighed the rewards. But I don't believe that was the case yesterday.