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Who will be the champion?
Matt Neal 29%  29%  [ 6 ]
Jason Plato 14%  14%  [ 3 ]
Gordon Shedden 43%  43%  [ 9 ]
Mat Jackson 10%  10%  [ 2 ]
Andrew Jordan 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Frank Wrathall 5%  5%  [ 1 ]
Tom Onslow Cole 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes: 21
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Tech-Speed to return later this year

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Excellent news, sad that George isn't part of the squad but great to see a newcomer joining the series.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:13 am 
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2013 calendar, basically the same as 2012

1, Sat 30/Sun 31 March, Brands Hatch Indy, Kent
2, Sat 20/Sun 21 April, Donington Park, Derbyshire/Leicestershire
3, Sat 4/Sun 5 May, Thruxton, Hampshire
4, Sat 8/Sun 9 June, Oulton Park, Cheshire
5, Sat 22/Sun 23 June, Croft, North Yorkshire
6, Sat 3/Sun 4 August, Snetterton, Norfolk
7, Sat 24/Sun 25 August, Knockhill, Fife
8, Sat 14/Sun 15 September, Rockingham, Northamptonshire
9, Sat 28/Sun 29 September, Silverstone, Northamptonshire
10, Sat 12/Sun 13 October, Brands Hatch Grand Prix, Kent

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:55 am 
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Why no Birmingham Superprix :(


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Autosport.com wrote:
What's wrong with the BTCC?

The NGTC regulations have brought new teams to Britain's tin-top series, but the racing hasn't been great and the paddock isn't a happy place to be in 2012. Kevin Turner explains why

By Kevin Turner
AUTOSPORT features editor


The British Touring Car Championship is widely regarded as the premier series in the UK. It comfortably has the highest attendance and TV viewing figures of any domestic four-wheeled motorsport in Britain. And yet...

The racing of late has not been very good. Unusually tame contests have only tended to be interspersed by clashes and crashes rather than proper wheel-to-wheel racing. Knockhill last weekend was perhaps the worst yet, with cars rarely changing position without swapping paint. Or rather, punching a hole in each other.

Part of the problem is the stewarding. Two former champions voiced the same concern to me in Scotland: punishments for bad driving need to be tougher (and consistent), not just to clean up the series, but also to send the right messages to all those watching.

Let's not forget the Ginetta Junior Championship, aimed at helping potential stars of the future, appears on the same bill. And I doubt they're the only young drivers watching.

At Snetterton earlier this month, Matt Neal hit Jason Plato sideways at the high-speed Coram right-hander. Plato retaliated by taking them both off at Murrays and getting the place back.

Both moves were worthy of censure (for different reasons). But the two rivals each lost two places and they finished in the order they were before either clash, so there was no obvious place swap to make and they got off with a reprimand.

Other drivers, some of whom are less capable than Plato and Neal at choosing where to touch someone (or controlling their cars when contact occurs), have been punished, but this tends to be done only in terms of fines and licence endorsements.

One of the former champions suggested that putting the odd driver 'on the bench', so that they miss a race, would sharpen things up...

Of course, there is a level of entertainment produced by these sorts of shenanigans that many fans enjoy, but that doesn't mean it's good racing.

As a current frontrunner said at the weekend, "this is supposed to be the best championship in Britain," which should surely include the best driving.

In fairness, it's not just the drivers or stewards who are to blame. The technical regulations, specifically those using lap times to adjust turbo boost levels, contribute too.

I've never been quite clear what the official aim of the equalisation is. Is it to equalise engines, or engines and chassis, or engines, chassis, teams and drivers?

The current system is lap time based, which of course lumps together all factors, including the drivers.

If you take the view that the top names in the various cars – Neal, Gordon Shedden and Andrew Jordan in the Honda Civic, Plato in the MG6, Ford's Mat Jackson and Rob Collard in the BMW – are all pretty close in ability, then equalising all their cars shouldn't cause a huge problem. All you're really doing is ensuring that no-one gets too dominant and the title race remains close.

Not for the purist, but it make sense for the entertainment.

But beyond that, it does create two issues. The first is the way the various cars end up delivering their similar lap time. A good chassis, like the Civic, can do good times with little power, so stays at base level on the boost. A car with a not-so-good chassis, such as the S2000 Focus, needs more boost to achieve the same time.

You see the problem? If, for whatever reason, a car like the Honda finds itself behind a higher-boosted machine, how is it supposed to overtake? Such discrepancy has existed throughout the sport's history, particularly in GTs and sportscars, but in this case it is being artificially created rather than being the result of intrinsic differences between the cars.

Series boss Alan Gow rightly points out that there is a limit to the extra boost allowed above each engine's base – 0.125 bar – so truly slow car-driver combinations won't keep getting extra boost until they win.

But at Knockhill it was obvious how much quicker Aron Smith's Motorbase Focus was than Plato's MG and Shedden's Civic when the road went straight ('Sheds' was 5mph down despite having a tow, which is a bigger deficit than Plato's normally aspirated Chevrolet Cruze had to the top turbos last season, but Honda did admit to boost issues too).

And what happened? Smith and Plato ended up clashing because the MG kept having to defend against the Ford's power, and Shedden punted Smith out of third on the final lap: there was no other way by.

The other issue is that, when you don't have a top name in a given model, that car gets more boost than it should.

It's probably fair to say that Smith, who is currently a good driver rather than a top one, would not have had as much boost at Knockhill if Jackson had still been in the S2000 Focus at Snetterton, where he probably would have recorded quicker lap times. The Focus would therefore have looked better at Snetterton and would have arrived in Scotland with less boost.

Or, to put it in a more extreme way: if I were to replace Plato and Andy Neate at MG for a round, that would give them maximum boost for the following event because my times would make the car look like a load of rubbish.

Unless you have one driver doing times in all the cars – which is how the FIA does its GT3 equalisation – the variation in driving talent will remain a factor and those with no top-notch team-mate will receive an artificially fast car.

In such a context, it is also very difficult to know who is doing a genuinely good job. On any given weekend, is a driver doing well because of his own efforts, the team being on top of the car, or because at this round that car has more boost than it did before?

One respected team manager, whose view is not atypical, said: "It's creating a problem. It's falsifying some of it. Some people are going faster than they should be."

I'd be tempted to just set the boost levels (the racing was arguably better at the start of the year before the rolling boost changes kicked in) and let everyone get on with it, but maybe I'm looking at it from the wrong point of view. It's a long time since touring cars could be considered a 'pure' motorsport event and yet people do love it.

Gow could also well argue that having more people at the front, irrespective of why, is a good thing for the spectators. Plus, it encourages those drivers who aren't the most talented because it gives them a chance.

If you take the view that fans just want to see a close race with the odd crash and don't care why someone is near the front, then it's all fine.

But I'd like to give the fans more credit than that, and the competitors need to feel they are in a series befitting its status. The BTCC should be better than that. Surely that must be possible…


It's about time someone spoke up. Driving standards (from top down) are poor, stewarding is then not consistent and the equalization is a joke. The racing is still fun and it's nice to see the lower teams and drivers do well, but it's a false economy.

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Last edited by kals on Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:47 pm 
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Kevin has hit the nail on the head there. Especially regarding the discrepancies weekend-by-weekend. It's good to see that article written as well, particularly from Autosport. It's not going to be a particularly popular piece but he's bloody right.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:55 pm 
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Thanks for the article. Was already wondering what he was writing about after seeing the headline on Autosport.

The first part he complains about the lack of overtaking and too much crashing. Well, the races I have seen earlier in the year featured a lot of passing and crashing is just part of touring cars.

S2000 and also the NGTC cars are not spectacular to watch. They don't sound anything special. If you are trackside it's not that exciting. I would rather watch a F3 go around a circuit because it's much more impressive and sounds better. It's the contact, the door to door action that makes it exciting. Remember that slide in I think in 09 when Plato in the Lacetti got hit into paddock hill bend and managed to recover. That was amazing to see. Or even when Plato and Neal crash, that is fun, that is controversy.

Second part is about the equalization. I think they have been off the last couple of years. First the Ford was just way too quick, last year the Civic was too quick. It's difficult. But they keep on working at it. And they sometimes get it right. For instance it's good too see the BMW's still competing with the top guys. I also like to see that cars make their speed in different ways, or for instance some can go quick immediately or others get fast near the end.

I think the series is the best touring car series in the world right now. Just look at the sorry state of Swedish touring cars or the official world championship.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:03 pm 
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HRC wrote:
S2000 and also the NGTC cars are not spectacular to watch. They don't sound anything special. If you are trackside it's not that exciting. I would rather watch a F3 go around a circuit because it's much more impressive and sounds better. It's the contact, the door to door action that makes it exciting. Remember that slide in I think in 09 when Plato in the Lacetti got hit into paddock hill bend and managed to recover. That was amazing to see. Or even when Plato and Neal crash, that is fun, that is controversy.


This is track dependant. S2000 and NGTC are spectacular at Knockhill. On two wheels, sliding everywhere. It's awesome to watch. F Renault and F3 are pant shittingly boring at Knockhill though.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:18 pm 
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That is a good article. They should forget about equalisation and just let everyone run the same boost, so what if the same car wins all the time? It's not as if it hasn't happened before.

HRC wrote:
S2000 and also the NGTC cars are not spectacular to watch. They don't sound anything special. If you are trackside it's not that exciting. I would rather watch a F3 go around a circuit because it's much more impressive and sounds better. It's the contact, the door to door action that makes it exciting. Remember that slide in I think in 09 when Plato in the Lacetti got hit into paddock hill bend and managed to recover. That was amazing to see. Or even when Plato and Neal crash, that is fun, that is controversy.

That's the thing with modern touring cars, it's not the cars that are exciting, it's the racing. Go back about 25 years and it would be the other way around.

ellis wrote:
This is track dependant. S2000 and NGTC are spectacular at Knockhill. On two wheels, sliding everywhere. It's awesome to watch. F Renault and F3 are pant shittingly boring at Knockhill though.

To be fair, FRenault was pant shittingly boring everywhere :lol: . Give me a Porsche race any day.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:24 pm 
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I don't think it was shown on TV, but they ran some classic BTCC cars during the lunch break at Knockhill. The Nissan Primera sounded fucking amazing. Why can't we have that sound back? It was an incredible induction noise.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Touring cars is about door to door close contact racing, but what we've of late is far over and above that. Touring car racing is not about crashing each other off the road or using your car as a plough to get past the car ahead of you.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:27 am 
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You could argue that the Hondas are the best car out there and over the balance of the season it is looking very likely that one of their two drivers is going to be champion so maybe the cream rises to the top no matter what the regulations...

But its not like the championship would be completely dull if they were allowed to have the car advantage they so obviously would have if not for all the boost reductions they've suffered.
In fact it might be more enjoyable as the team would probably let Shedden and Neal race it out without having to worry about any other team coming at them. And of course Jason would still make cameo appearances when the track suited him, or in race 3 reverse grid races.
His season, by all rights, should be a lot like 2004, when he first returned with the Seat.
His car wasn't out and out competitive compared to the dominant Vauxhalls but he was able to post a result here and there and show his hand while gathering a lot of data for the next season along the way.

MG have just returned, last minute, and built their own car to new regulations, they shouldn't be equalised into a championship threat right out of the box, every manufacturer worth their salt should know they can't win as soon as they return to a championship (unless you're Honda in WTCC next year, well done them :p )

But maybe that's why Gow does it, it's not about the on-track product, it's not even about keeping panto villian Plato in the championship for the fans, its more advertising the series to potential new entrants.
"Come on in guys, it's easy, you'll win in your first season!"

It's hard for me to be critical about the BTCC when its the one series that will consistently put on fantastic racing no matter where it races, but perhaps the equivalency bullshit has gone too far.
The shunts and carnage might get all the headlines (of which there'd be a lot less if Plato knew how to actually defend without trying to back the car behind him up into battling with the cars further behind so he can make his escape) but there's still a lot of quality racing underneath all that shouting and fisticuffs.
DTM would kill for that excitement. The 6 hours of Silverstone (alright, not comparing apples with apples here, but still ) had about 1 hour of quality racing spread over the entire race, V8 Supercars put on 1 decent race in 3 atm,
WTCC is a one trick pony with driving standards sometimes even below BTCC's (considering that its one manufacturer team bullying independents it just comes off as a lot worse for a supposedly "professional" series ) .

The BTCC has been the one series that has put on consistently great racing, whatever the car count, whoever the personalities, whatever the era.
Hopefully the recent equivalency bullshit will ease off by the time everyone is in NGTC cars rather than the half and half we have now. (Though it was never this bad between S2000 and BTC spec cars...)

Some things do need to change but it needs more of a fine tune than a complete overhaul.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:01 am 
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Agree with the 2nd point about manipulating boost, but not so sure about the point about driving standards. One of the "former champions" quoted was obviously Plato, who created his own mess like he always does - over-defending and taking yourself out should be punished as harshly as knocking someone off. Plenty of series know how to police this, don't know why BTCC finds it so hard.

The boost issue is ridiculous though. What's the problem with just going back to a pure success ballast system?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:14 am 
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I'm glad it's not just me who's noticed that the racing hasn't been up to it's usual standard this year. A few seasons ago you were pretty much guaranteed some crazy racing every race - remember Herbert, Giovanardi & co battling around the banking at Rockingham, or half the field going 7 wide up to the chicane at Thruxton. Fast forward to race 3 at Knockhill on Sunday, where there was barely a single overtaking move. I think this can only be down to the different boost levels - if a faster car (in a straight line) gets out front no one can get by them, and if a slower car is infront they'll probably last a lap before being punted into the hedge. There's no room for genuine driver skill at the moment.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:40 am 
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I think Knockhill was the nadir. It was just ridiculous in all honesty. I mean, an S2000 car won by a country mile. Aron Smith was so much slower but could easily defend from Shedden, until he was nerfed off.

Collard was 16.7 seconds ahead of Shedden in 3rd. 16 seconds in 27 laps. That is ridiculous.

I just can't fathom how Gow thinks all of this is fair. Honda has gone the right way and made an NGTC car and engine and yet they appear to be getting shafted for it. This whole equality issue is just bullshit. Kevin Turner is right - and I think he's right about someone like Aron Smith's reduced talent compared to Jackson can help his team-mate in the next race. A team might get a boost reduction for the next event, which hampers them even more because the nature of the circuit is different.

Also, I don't want little teams doing well. Once in a while, yes. But when the smaller guys get good results regularly then it becomes less of a novelty. I want to see Honda at the top because they've done the best job. Ditto with Plato and the MG, as much as it pains me to say it. Same with Pirtek because they've done things the right way.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:18 pm 
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phil1993 wrote:
Ditto with Plato and the MG, as much as it pains me to say it.


But MG haven't done the best job and are not on par with Honda, compare Jeff Smith and Andy Neate to prove the point. Smith is doing a decent job this season and is driving well, Neate is just a plain farce. Plato will always extract as much out of a car like Neal, Shedden and Jordan, but the equalisation is flattering to deceive the real performance of the MG.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Neate being crap is more about Neate than the car. You can put him in any car and he'd be shit. The MG is an exceptionally good car, and should be near the front. It seems to me that Honda are getting screwed for doing a good job, whilst S2000 teams are still being allowed to win.

Equality is bullshit - why should teams spend thousands upgrading to the new rules when others just keep the old cars and have the rules bent to allow them to win?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:26 am 
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How long have we got left of NGTC vs S2000 before it's fully NGTC anyway?

It's not like S2000 vs BTC spec was, where S2000 was given a very slight competitive advantage to encourage people to switch while those who couldn't afford it immediately could still get out there in their existing machinery.

In my view NGTC should be winning the majority of the races and S2000 start being phased out, but what do I know.

And the MG might be great, but as I say, it's their first year and if anything should be a recce for that car and team getting data on how it performs on each type of track for 2012 while occasionally putting in a decent showing when conditions allow for it.
Like Seat in 2004


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:41 am 
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codename_47 wrote:
And the MG might be great, but as I say, it's their first year and if anything should be a recce for that car and team getting data on how it performs on each type of track for 2012 while occasionally putting in a decent showing when conditions allow for it.
Like Seat in 2004


Bingo :thumbsup:

The MG may be a good car, but it is NOT on par with the Honda. The equalisation is masking the true pace.

S2000 was supposed to be fazed out by the end of this year (I thought).

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:28 pm 
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NGTC cars are having their boost increased next year but S2000 cars will still be eligible.

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