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F1 is bleeding, the wound is overtaking, how could they fix this? The new set of aero rules didn't help..

Should they try and ban the double diffuser?

KERS sounded a good way to increase overtaking, but it actually decreased overtaking I think

now I'm watching SLF and they also have a boost system, but they have a better set of rules for it.
A driver in SLF can only use it's boost every 2 minutes, they just had a fight: Bourdais vs Bernoldi, Bernoldi used his boost to defend on the main straight, a lap later Bourdais used his boost to overtake Bernoldi on the main straight, Bernoldi couldn't use his boost because the 2 minutes wheren't over
this brings some cool strategies and overtaking

I also think the drivers don't want to risk a DNF when trying to overtake, maybe they should award a point for the car that does the most overtaking on the track? that would motivate the drivers a bit more

KERS is good for overtaking, we saw that last race with Kimi taking the lead. But the Superleague way of limiting the use to once per 2 minutes is very clever and should be used in F1. Then a driver can pass someone with KERS, but not defend the lap afterwards and the driver that is overtaken could use KERS to get back in front.

Now F1 drivers mainly use KERS to get some extra acceleration out of a corner all the time. 1 push every 2 minutes would make this tactic unusable and could improve overtaking.

They should also get rid of the wheel caps and the high exhausts, because they both disrupt the airflow. But wheel caps will be banned next year according to Brundle last race.

And points for every position would encourage more overtaking in the backfield. Now it doesn't matter if you finish thirteenth or twelfth, with points for those positions it will give drivers a reason to push all race long. Especially with the field so close together now we need this points system. If you have a bad weekend you could still score some points (like Webber last 2 races, ninth place would still give him points.

Steel brakes.

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Vorsprung durch Technik.

KERS only produces overtaking because the cars that have it can overtake the cars that don't. If everyone had it, the effect would be negated.

A set number of boosts per race like in A1GP would be the way to make it work if you wanted to go down the boost route.

1. Get the aero right
2. Get the aero right
3. Get the aero right
4. Get the aero right
5. Get the aero right
6. Get the aero right
7. Get the aero right
8. Fix the tyres so there's not so many marbles
9. Get rid of the rev limiter
10. Give KERS either to everyone or nobody. Make it much more powerful, it's super restricted as it is now.

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ma twatter (F1/motorsports, footie, games and general nonsense ramblings)

Not with a 2 minute time rule between the boosts like SF, perfect solution.

This, this and fucking this. Formula 1 cars, as shown last year, are able to get tows fairly easily, but they have no way of utilising that advantage because they hit the limiter and are unable to pass. KERS has only amplified this problem.

Keep the rule of 8 engines a season in, but let the teams use the engines as they want to.

At the same time, ban the DDD. The aero is mostly fine apart from the DDD.

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Dan Wheldon ¦ 1978-2011
Marco Simoncelli ¦ 1987-2011
Jules Bianchi ¦ 1989-2015
Justin Wilson ¦ 1978-2015

Yeah, I know he's mad and I don't care. I do not care. I did not care then. I do not care now. I'm here to race him.

Exactly, plus the brakes that are used nowadays make passing even harder.

I totally agree with this.

The brakes are too good as well. 10 years ago to brake after 100m for hairpins took balls as you would usually do that around 110-120m but now you can easily brake at 80m perfectly, but ruin it at 75m so it is very difficult to outbrake someone unless you are already ahead of them.

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Dan Wheldon | 1978 - 2011

Stop with this brake argument. Pat Symonds IIRC was the one who confirmed whether Carbon or Steel it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference as to how well the car stopped.

Main problem is Double Deck Diffuser and RevLimiter. The cars follow just fine just can't take advantage.

why? Outbraking someone now IS harder than it was 10-15 years ago simply because the brakes are better

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Dan Wheldon | 1978 - 2011

I read long ago that on one lap steel brakes would not make much difference but in 300 kilometres they would while comparing to carbon fibre.

I'm honestly not convinced at all that the DDD is the biggest issue regarding the aero. Obviously it doesn't help, but the first few races this year, most of the grid didn't have the DDD and I don't remember seeing more passing.

I reckon the Overtaking Working Group did a good step with the regulations this year but we need a further step.

Btw I'm not convinced brakes are an issue neither, the biggest problem is that people can't get side by side, once they're side-by-side we see plenty of people outbraking each other IMO.

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ma twatter (F1/motorsports, footie, games and general nonsense ramblings)

The first three races were awesome and had lots of overtaking.

I don't believe there is a further step; Max effectively gave the OWG free rein to write half the Technical Regulations for this year. If they had any more good ideas, they would've implemented them.

Cut the downforce out of the cars, make them harder to drive, make the drivers more susceptable to errors and you will have more overtaking. Because the field is now so equalised you will never get a fast car stuck behind one that is significantly slower, meaning that overtaking due to those circumstances is rare and will only get rarer.

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Dan Wheldon ¦ 1978-2011
Marco Simoncelli ¦ 1987-2011
Jules Bianchi ¦ 1989-2015
Justin Wilson ¦ 1978-2015

Yeah, I know he's mad and I don't care. I do not care. I did not care then. I do not care now. I'm here to race him.

How much further can they really go, I don't really know, that is a question for aerodynamics experts.

However I got the vibe from the OWG that this was only expected to be a starting point. I remember interviews where they said their goal was to make it easier to pass but still difficult; and I believe the plan was to make a further downforce cut 1 or 2 years later. That probably got forgotten by everyone after so much fighting and lobbying over the regulations with the whole FOTA thing.

Another issue is that the OWG were expecting a lot from the adjustable front wings, but I believe very few teams are using it. That idea turned out to be a failure, at least so far.

My belief is that if GP2 and A1GP could solve the aero issue and get fantastic racing (specially with their original first cars), then it shouldn't be impossible for F1 to do the same. Sure it's difficult because the cars are quicker and aren't spec, but these are some of the brightest engineering minds in the world. I imagine the OWG meetings felt like a fun challenge to them.

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ma twatter (F1/motorsports, footie, games and general nonsense ramblings)

They could maintain that the engineers got their aero grip from underneath the car's body instead of on its top surface.

Yes, ground effect please, I probably say this every time this type of thread comes up.

You can also have a word with Bridgestone to ask if they feel like making their tyres not QUITE so good and not quite so grippy.
I think a lot of the issue with the great racing in the first three races was the lack of DDD and also the big step between the two compound of tyres causing different cars to have different grip levels.
I remember back to the Denver street race in Champcar where Bridgestone's Red Tyres were completely rubbish and were something like a second a lap SLOWER than the black tyres after a few good laps. It meant the cars were suffering for grip but because running the reds at some point was mandatory you had different teams running them at different points in the race.
The result was one of the best races I've ever seen, it was almost like a Moto GP race with all the constant position swapping.
The tail end of the Melbourne race was a bit like this too with the leaders struggling on worn tyres and the BMWs taking whole chunks out of them. Who knows what would've happened without the crash between the Red Bull and BMW....
There were also a lot of excellent GP2 races where the tyres had gone off too, I'm thinking of the Valencia race where Carroll had his flip and even the Saturday silverstone race in 2008 (proving that the newer car can overtake if given a bit of help!)

So, no DDD, no wheel covers, no rev limit, yes KERS, less grippy tyres and ground effect....THEN you'd have a RACING series instead of a drivers one

Overtaking has always been hard even at the classic circuits that has massive straights like the Osterreichring. But over the last 10 years it has become increasingly harder, even with circuits that have overtaking in mind.

Whatever the FIA so, the engineers always recover lost downforce or engine power.

The big problem is that the straight line speed of the 20 cars is all very similar due to customer engines and the fact that they have been frozen. And the effect of the slipstream has become very little unless you have a boost button, so even with a 2km straight it is virtually impossible to get close enough.

Bernies solution from this month's F1 Racing (my question): "For drivers to try harder". How can they try harder when they can't get close enough to overtake??

Don't both GP2 and A1GP have ground effect cars? We need that to return sharpish.



What do you want us to do. Uninvent technological progress? Nearly everything within a racing car especially Formula One is much better than 10-15 years ago be it brakes, computer systems, cooling, steering, safety e.t.c.