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2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
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Author:  Justin Time [ Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
James B wrote:
... , especially when you just know that the media will persist with Hamilton's comments despite Toto Wolff dismissing them as nonsense

I'm aware that you are immune to facts but still:

Quote:
"Nico felt he needed to hold his line. He needed to make a point, ..." said Wolff.


Merc has commented on the headlines, that Nico crashed into him deliberately, which he did not. But he deliberately risked a collision, and that's what the fuss is about.
Author:  cookie [ Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
Why wasn't there a safety car after that tyre of Hamilton landed on the racing line in one of the fastest parts of the track? Rosberg even got a piece stuck on an antenna. It's rubber but you can still get hurt or break your car when you run over it. Would have gotten Hamilton back in the race.

And I'm putting my money on Ricciardo for the championship. Only 14 points to gain before he is in the 50 points window for the season finale. I'm sure the Mercedes drivers will have contact again this year. Hamilton will want to get back at Rosberg.
Author:  LucasWheldon [ Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
so they already had decided who's gonna win the championship or they'll handle to Ricciardo?
Author:  Ian-S [ Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
The bit of tyre that got stuck on Nico's antenna was from the Manor car, not Lewis's, but I see your point, as soon as I saw the carcass fly off of Lewis's car I said that'll cause a safety car, guess someone ran into the track to retrieve it during a quiet period, it was early in the race and the field hadn't really spread out much.
Author:  cookie [ Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
Ian-S wrote:
The bit of tyre that got stuck on Nico's antenna was from the Manor car, not Lewis's, but I see your point, as soon as I saw the carcass fly off of Lewis's car I said that'll cause a safety car, guess someone ran into the track to retrieve it during a quiet period, it was early in the race and the field hadn't really spread out much.


Manor car? Marussia? I thought it was a piece of lewis's tyre that had gotten stuck on a Sauber car's underfloor, which then flew of the Sauber just as Rosberg passed him. I saw the leading drivers swerving around the tyre the lap after it had disintegrated (mainly vettel an Alonso), so it certainly wasn't removed by a marshal. Several cars ran over it, that Sauber collected a big piece and massa also got a piece on his front wing.

They are so focused at creating safe tracks with all those tarmac run-ofs, but they let these potentially lethal obstacle laying on the track.
Author:  Justin Time [ Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
cookie wrote:
Ian-S wrote:
The bit of tyre that got stuck on Nico's antenna was from the Manor car, not Lewis's, but I see your point, as soon as I saw the carcass fly off of Lewis's car I said that'll cause a safety car, guess someone ran into the track to retrieve it during a quiet period, it was early in the race and the field hadn't really spread out much.


Manor car? Marussia? I thought it was a piece of lewis's tyre that had gotten stuck on a Sauber car's underfloor, which then flew of the Sauber just as Rosberg passed him. I saw the leading drivers swerving around the tyre the lap after it had disintegrated (mainly vettel an Alonso), so it certainly wasn't removed by a marshal. Several cars ran over it, that Sauber collected a big piece and massa also got a piece on his front wing.

They are so focused at creating safe tracks with all those tarmac run-ofs, but they let these potentially lethal obstacle laying on the track.


You are right, that really is odd. Especially since it already happened in Hockenheim, where they didn't deem it necessary to call out the safety car. Although I agree that in the last years, they called out the safety car a bit too often, but since this summer they are really precious about it.
Author:  nascarf1indycar [ Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
both of these times the SC wasn't called (Hockenheim and Spa), Hamilton would have benefit from it.... but I guess it is just a coincidence it wasn't called out. I think we agree that big rubber in the middle of the straight was a SC for sure, they let the whole field ran over it, and it damaged Massa's front wing.
Author:  codename_47 [ Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
Justin Time wrote:
cookie wrote:
Ian-S wrote:
The bit of tyre that got stuck on Nico's antenna was from the Manor car, not Lewis's, but I see your point, as soon as I saw the carcass fly off of Lewis's car I said that'll cause a safety car, guess someone ran into the track to retrieve it during a quiet period, it was early in the race and the field hadn't really spread out much.


Manor car? Marussia? I thought it was a piece of lewis's tyre that had gotten stuck on a Sauber car's underfloor, which then flew of the Sauber just as Rosberg passed him. I saw the leading drivers swerving around the tyre the lap after it had disintegrated (mainly vettel an Alonso), so it certainly wasn't removed by a marshal. Several cars ran over it, that Sauber collected a big piece and massa also got a piece on his front wing.

They are so focused at creating safe tracks with all those tarmac run-ofs, but they let these potentially lethal obstacle laying on the track.


You are right, that really is odd. Especially since it already happened in Hockenheim, where they didn't deem it necessary to call out the safety car. Although I agree that in the last years, they called out the safety car a bit too often, but since this summer they are really precious about it.


We learnt at Hockenheim that Marshal's lives are less important than the race being delayed from its schedule.
If that ridiculous situation wasn't enough, then GP3 took it to a whole new level with a car left on almost the racing line with a freaking TRACTOR next to the track...
Image

In wet conditions....with the kids.

Which is why I thought all the flak Lewis was getting for wanting to protect his engine was a bit unfair Running around with a damaged car racking up engine miles hoping a SC will come out was a bit unrealistic.
This is Formula 1, the safety car NEVER comes out*
(*unless there's a bit of water, then it'll be out too much)
Author:  Ian-S [ Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
cookie wrote:
Ian-S wrote:
The bit of tyre that got stuck on Nico's antenna was from the Manor car, not Lewis's, but I see your point, as soon as I saw the carcass fly off of Lewis's car I said that'll cause a safety car, guess someone ran into the track to retrieve it during a quiet period, it was early in the race and the field hadn't really spread out much.


Manor car? Marussia? I thought it was a piece of lewis's tyre that had gotten stuck on a Sauber car's underfloor, which then flew of the Sauber just as Rosberg passed him. I saw the leading drivers swerving around the tyre the lap after it had disintegrated (mainly vettel an Alonso), so it certainly wasn't removed by a marshal. Several cars ran over it, that Sauber collected a big piece and massa also got a piece on his front wing.

They are so focused at creating safe tracks with all those tarmac run-ofs, but they let these potentially lethal obstacle laying on the track.


Yeah, I call the Maussia's by their original name lol.

Lewis's tyre broke apart on the other side of the track, and the initial contact between the two Merc's was further up at the next corner after where the Sauber later threw it at Nico, on the BBC they showed a replay from the helicopter of the start and on it you could see Bianchi's tyre disintergrating on the exit of Eau Rouge, so my assumption is the bit of tyre that the Sauber threw up came from the Manor car and not his team mate.

Lewis's carcas was laying in the road for one lap while they swirved around it yes, but the next lap through the main pieces had been removed either by a Marshall or massa lol.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that IMHO I think it's far more likely the Sauber, while driving off the normal racing line, picked up and flung a bit of rubber from the Marussia at the Merc, rather than picking up a bit of Lewis's tyre on the second lap, carrying it around the track for 20 minutes, then threw it back off again just as Nico was passing.

I know Lewis is a bit of a bible basher, but I doubt he has that strong of a direct line to 'God'. :lol:
Author:  Philthy82 [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
I'm surprised to see so many here focussing on the media and personality side of this, seems like the perception of Lewis as a whinger is the main argument people are using for siding with Nico on the collision. The reality in F1 has always been that unless the car behind is significantly alongside you coming out of a corner, it's your corner and your right to take the racing line. Rosberg had barely 5cm of front wing on Lewis. If he was trying to "prove a point" he did it in an idiotic way, he had nowhere near as much position on Lewis in this case as he did in Hungary.

Lewis has come off as a bit of a baby about it on radio and in the media, sure, but all he has is words - Rosberg's already robbed him of a fair fight where it matters.
Author:  iks [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
This incident will just make LH try harder which will be good for us. There are plenty of races left for him to catch up to Nico.

Not that I want either of them to win the championship but it will be one of them.
Author:  Gael [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
I guess I'm just a casual fan, but I saw it as just a racing deal. Rosberg went for it, and Hamilton made his turn as if he wasn't there. I thought Rosberg's move was ambitious, but I didn't think it was out of line by any means.

Personally, I'm tired of F1 drivers running each other off the road, I find myself rooting for drivers to "prove a point" if you will, and not backing out of pass attempts when the the door gets chopped on them even when they're still there.
Author:  James B [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
Philthy82 wrote:
The reality in F1 has always been that unless the car behind is significantly alongside you coming out of a corner, it's your corner and your right to take the racing line.


But that's not what the rules say. The rules say if you have any kind of overlap - and that includes the 5 cm of the front wing that Rosberg had over Lewis' rear wheel - it's up to the guy in front to avoid the collision. They're pretty clear and have been for a couple of years

Here and elsewhere, I've seen people banging on about the racing line, as if that's the Holy Grail. But the racing line isn't important - that goes out the window when you've got someone alongside. It's the apex of the corner that matters. Just as in 2010 at Singapore, Lewis was diving for the apex to claim the corner when he hadn't cleared the car on his inside. He could have avoided the collision had he gone a fraction wider, but for whatever reason he didn't. He cut across the path that Rosberg was taking - and the fact that he has form for doing this leads me to believe he knew exactly what he was doing and expected Nico to back off

If the Judge13 article is to be believed (and I'm not sure myself but the rules are pretty clear on this regardless), this is why the stewards took no action - because Hamilton broke the rules in shutting the door too quickly, and he was essentially punished for that with the puncture. Had Rosberg been the only one to suffer damage, it seems as if Lewis would've been penalised for that

Call it a racing incident or call it what you like. Neither driver deserved a penalty, both could have avoided it, but the onus is more on Hamilton in that situation to avoid the collision because Rosberg was that fraction alongside
Author:  Philthy82 [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
I actually can't find any rule that refers to defending in corners, which is surprising.

The 2012 clarification (http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules ... 3/fia.html) states:

Quote:
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.


This really only talks about making a defensive move on a straight or approaching a corner. In Lewis's case he was in the corner, had the racing line and Nico was a fraction alongside him at corner exit. Lewis never changed lines or made a defensive move here, so the 1 car width requirement does not apply.

I've always thought it common knowledge in F1 that when exiting a corner, unless you have a reasonable overlap (not reasonable in the sense of the above rule, which was written to avoid any contact on straights, but reasonable in at least wheel to wheel), you need to yield the racing line to the car in front or get run off track. But putting this assumption aside, common sense seems to support this as if drivers are allowed to put a fraction of their nose in on corner exit it will put the leading car at an unfair disadvantage to ever take a normal racing line with a car behind, and possibly introduce dangerous situations considering that is much more of a blind spot for the car in front than the car behind. Not to mention keeping your eye on the mirrors while taking a corner is much more risky than on a straight.
Author:  trout [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
its been a longstanding rule in open wheel racing that unless the passing car is significantly alongside (forward of the blindspot) than the corner belongs to the leading driver.

i still believed at first that this was an unfortunate racing incident, but nico's comments have quite clearly proven otherwise. i regard hamilton's "whiney" comments with sympathy; mainly as he has endeavored to "fight fair" and race in a "sporting" manner with integrity - something nico seems to be taking advantage of.

the type of driving nico has admitted to today is what, for me, has tainted michael schumacher's championships.
Author:  MaTT [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
That's the entire problem though - Rosberg doesn't think Hamilton has been fighting fair. The whole point he was trying to prove yesterday was that he might have moved out the way in Bahrain and Hungary to avoid an accident, but this time he wasn't going to do it. He thinks Lewis has been margainal at best with his defensive driving. It's a perspective I can appreciate.

The move yesterday was stupid but the end result of constant minor incidents between the two, and to be honest a whole lot of people are just getting sick of both of them and their constant bickering. You kind of knew the moment Ross Brawn left that things would go south. Paddy Lowe and Niki Lauda arent 'people persons', Toto Wolff doesn't seem to be able to keep tabs on them and has very little F1 experience. The kids are now in charge of the school and it's all going tits up.
Author:  ptclaus98 [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
So hey guys, I heard something exciting happened in the racings today
Author:  Karan [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
I'm not a Lewis fan by any means (quite the opposite in fact) but I don't quite get all the whiny bitch comments in regards to him today. I was actually surprised by how much restraint he showed today. I honestly expected much worse from him. I fully understand him wanting to DNF as well since he'd wrecked the floor of his car and there was no sense to put more mileage on the power unit at that point.

Don't quite get the anger toward the MGP management either. I'm not quite sure what they could've done differently today. Toto already admitted their mistake in not handling the communication to the drivers well enough in Hungary. It's not like they made Nico turn into Lewis there or cause the incident. I don't think they needed to remind the drivers about such a basic golden rule. So I'm not quite sure what people are expecting from them. Would you rather have them enforce strict team orders? With MGP running away with the championship, I'm just glad they've given the drivers so much free reign to race and give us fans all this juicy controversy.
Author:  ellis [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
Restraint? He was moaning about retiring the car constantly and then immediately ran to the press telling his own warped version of what was said during a private meeting. At what point did Lewis show any sort of restraint?

The same Lewis would've been the first to blame the team had they pitted him and then a SC car had come out and he'd lost potential points. So let's not give him credit for looking for excuses to park the car.

Quote:
Don't quite get the anger toward the MGP management either. I'm not quite sure what they could've done differently today.


Not publicly thrown Nico under a bus, then back track, then have to correct Lewis afterwards. Nothing was handled well.
Author:  Zorba [ Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2014 Formula One Shell Belgian Grand Prix
It's simpler than it seems (Rosberg's onboard it's much more clear). Watch this Rosberg's fans.

http://a.pomf.se/gruivq.gif

Before the "second" leg curve, Rosberg turns his wheel to the right, they hit the wheels, and even so Rosberg not reduce its speed.

Another manipulated championship. 1- On two times when the SC should have been called, it was not, the two Rosberg would be harmed. 2- Team orders. 3- Only one car breaks down. No punishments to Rosberg behavior (Monaco and today). Still not clear to you guys? Is the first time it happens in F1?
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