TBK-Light.com :: 2014 Random F1 Discussion

According to John cooper and others sauber now has contracts with 4 drivers to race for them. Sutil, cd Garde, Ericsson and nasr. Could become a nice legal mess over there.

Willing to bet there's way more non-DRS passes in one race than you'd get in half a season in the pre-2010 era

There's no such thing as a non-DRS pass now. And there's no correlation between the number of passes in a race and how interesting it is

Quality should be put above quantity & I'd get more enjoyment watching a race with fewer higher quality overtakes than a race with more passes which were less interesting to watch via DRS or whatever.

StefMeister wrote:

Except it never happened like that in F1 post-1995. There was neither quantity nor quality.

It's been 3 or 4 seasons since DRS was introduced and some people are still obsessively fixated on it as a negative, whilst ignoring the other variables that come into play... Pirelli, KERS / ERS, no refuelling, aero-changes, etc... Haven't we seen enough demonstration that DRS does not guarantee drivers an easy pass? Other things still need to come into play.

coldtyre wrote:

StefMeister wrote:

Except it never happened like that in F1 post-1995. There was neither quantity nor quality.

I can remember a dozen good racing scraps & some good overtaking moves during that time although I accept there wasn't as many as there could have been.

However you have to take refueling into consideration, From race 1 where refueling was introduced (Brazil 1994) we saw the quality of the racing decline as overtaking moves from the track & into the pits.
When refueling was banned in 2010 we already saw an increase in overtaking (2010 featured more overtaking than any season since 1989) & with things like the F-ducts & double diffusers banned for 2011 along with the High-deg Pirelli tyres coming in we likely would have seen a further increase in overtaking & better racing even without DRS.

I think back to what we were told when DRS was announced, They were going to experiment with it & were going to run races without it before ditching it in favor of ground effects a few years later. But they haven't experimented with it, They have never tried a dry race without it, They have added a 2nd DRS zone to most tracks (Including tracks & areas that didn't need a 2nd zone) & have decided to stick with DRS more permanently instead of making the changes to the cars that were originally proposed.

I also think that if they wanted some sort of 'overtake' button there were/are far better systems with the P2P style system we see in Indycar & elsewhere been by far a better solution. Since P2P can be used anywhere at any time & by all drivers the lead driver can defend using it & its in the drivers hands when/where they use which introduces an element of strategy & you very rarely see P2P style systems produce the sort of easy/guaranteed 'highway passing' that DRS often does.

Instead of just sticking with DRS & continuing to use it the way they have been, Try other systems, Try using DRS in other ways & lets find a solution that allows opportunities to overtake without producing the sort of easy passes the DRS all too often has produced. There are alternatives so lets give them a try rather than just sticking with the DRS we have had since 2011.

I think back to what we were told when DRS was announced, They were going to experiment with it & were going to run races without it before ditching it in favor of ground effects a few years later. But they haven't experimented with it, They have never tried a dry race without it, They have added a 2nd DRS zone to most tracks (Including tracks & areas that didn't need a 2nd zone) & have decided to stick with DRS more permanently instead of making the changes to the cars that were originally proposed.

"It's up to the fans if that's what they want to do," he told media in the paddock at the Brazilian Grand Prix.

"Maybe people will put investment in the team.

"I think it's a disaster. We don't want begging bowls. If people can't afford to be in Formula 1, they have to find something else to do.

"If I sit in a poker game and I can't afford to be there with the other people, I get killed and have to leave."
"I don't know what they do with their money," he said. "I don't spend their money. We just give it to them.

"We give the teams nearly $900 million a year. We don't spend it.

"The trouble is they haven't really understood. People want to win, all the teams here want to win. Some teams have got more money and they spend it.

"When I had a race team a few years ago, in fact a few hundred years ago, I used to run the team according to how much money we could spend and we won the world championship.

"That's what they don't do. They don't seem to understand that somebody is going to be last."

When DRS was introduced, I was told it could be used everywhere and by anyone.

Instead they stuck to designated zones (and unlimited in quali and race until the end of 2012)

Caterham are nearly halfway to their goal, Rubens might get his goodbye after all.

Author:	WilliamsF1 [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
micha wrote: According to John cooper and others sauber now has contracts with 4 drivers to race for them. Sutil, cd Garde, Ericsson and nasr. Could become a nice legal mess over there. A team can race 4 drivers for the season can't they? Perhaps they plan to run all for through out the year at various races....

Author:	StefMeister [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
codename_47 wrote: Willing to bet there's way more non-DRS passes in one race than you'd get in half a season in the pre-2010 era Which shows that we don't need DRS James B wrote: There's no such thing as a non-DRS pass now. And there's no correlation between the number of passes in a race and how interesting it is As Istanbul 2011 proved, Over 80 passes which were mostly DRS (I think it was the highest number in a dry race ever?) yet its a race that nobody really remembers, Its certainly not looked back on as a classic. Its excitement, Good racing battles & good overtaking that makes races interesting & memorable, Not simply how many changes of position there was. Its like in Nascar where they go on & on about 80+ lead changes on the plate tracks, Its a pointless figure when there side by side most the time & who leads each lap is down to which line of cars got the better run off T4 & who pushed who coming to the line. Quality should be put above quantity & I'd get more enjoyment watching a race with fewer higher quality overtakes than a race with more passes which were less interesting to watch via DRS or whatever.

Author:	Fabs [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
I like DRS and I hope it stays

Author:	Coldtyre [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
StefMeister wrote: Quality should be put above quantity & I'd get more enjoyment watching a race with fewer higher quality overtakes than a race with more passes which were less interesting to watch via DRS or whatever. Except it never happened like that in F1 post-1995. There was neither quantity nor quality. I remember "exciting" races where Michael and Ralf followed each other for 20+ laps for the lead (Brazil, Montreal 2001) and not getting anywhere near trying a move. Same for Michael and Montoya at Monza 2003, etc... I don't call that quality. I call it boring, predictable statu quo bullshit. That period was so borng that even the rose-tinted glasses don't make me long for it. I only remember how bad the entertainment was and F1 since 2010 has been a blessing in comparison, mostly thanks to KERS and DRS. Nowadays, when Rosberg and Hamilton are battling it out within one second, with equal cars and laptimes, you know they won't just be following each other in the dirty air for the whole race waiting for pits. The small extra help from the DRS made the most excting battles possible this year, otherwise it would have been a re-enactment of the afore-mentioned early 2000s top battles.

Author:	Fabs [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
I agree 150%

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Author:	kals [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
Fabs wrote: I agree 150%

Author:	kals [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
It's been 3 or 4 seasons since DRS was introduced and some people are still obsessively fixated on it as a negative, whilst ignoring the other variables that come into play... Pirelli, KERS / ERS, no refuelling, aero-changes, etc... Haven't we seen enough demonstration that DRS does not guarantee drivers an easy pass? Other things still need to come into play.

Author:	StefMeister [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
coldtyre wrote: StefMeister wrote: Quality should be put above quantity & I'd get more enjoyment watching a race with fewer higher quality overtakes than a race with more passes which were less interesting to watch via DRS or whatever. Except it never happened like that in F1 post-1995. There was neither quantity nor quality. I can remember a dozen good racing scraps & some good overtaking moves during that time although I accept there wasn't as many as there could have been. However you have to take refueling into consideration, From race 1 where refueling was introduced (Brazil 1994) we saw the quality of the racing decline as overtaking moves from the track & into the pits. When refueling was banned in 2010 we already saw an increase in overtaking (2010 featured more overtaking than any season since 1989) & with things like the F-ducts & double diffusers banned for 2011 along with the High-deg Pirelli tyres coming in we likely would have seen a further increase in overtaking & better racing even without DRS. I think back to what we were told when DRS was announced, They were going to experiment with it & were going to run races without it before ditching it in favor of ground effects a few years later. But they haven't experimented with it, They have never tried a dry race without it, They have added a 2nd DRS zone to most tracks (Including tracks & areas that didn't need a 2nd zone) & have decided to stick with DRS more permanently instead of making the changes to the cars that were originally proposed. I also think that if they wanted some sort of 'overtake' button there were/are far better systems with the P2P style system we see in Indycar & elsewhere been by far a better solution. Since P2P can be used anywhere at any time & by all drivers the lead driver can defend using it & its in the drivers hands when/where they use which introduces an element of strategy & you very rarely see P2P style systems produce the sort of easy/guaranteed 'highway passing' that DRS often does. Instead of just sticking with DRS & continuing to use it the way they have been, Try other systems, Try using DRS in other ways & lets find a solution that allows opportunities to overtake without producing the sort of easy passes the DRS all too often has produced. There are alternatives so lets give them a try rather than just sticking with the DRS we have had since 2011.

Author:	Tobias [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
When DRS was introduced, I was told it could be used everywhere and by anyone. Instead they stuck to designated zones (and unlimited in quali and race until the end of 2012)

Author:	codename_47 [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
kals wrote: It's been 3 or 4 seasons since DRS was introduced and some people are still obsessively fixated on it as a negative, whilst ignoring the other variables that come into play... Pirelli, KERS / ERS, no refuelling, aero-changes, etc... Haven't we seen enough demonstration that DRS does not guarantee drivers an easy pass? Other things still need to come into play. The fact is that they got it wrong in Turkey 2011 (which was something like DRS' 5th ever race and they were certainly still working out the kinks), but it's never been that bad since then. It's not needed in places like the kemmel straight or the back straight in Canada (where, lets face it, all passes are pretty much drive-bys in a straight line before the braking zone even BEFORE drs was invented due to the length of the straights) but since it's arrival races like Hungary have gone from nothing, plz skip this week races to one of the best tracks of the season. Some people need to get over Turkey 2011 and stop using it as a rod to beat DRS' back For ever easy overtake in a straight line it gets decried for there must be at least 3x as many much more skilled overtakes outside of DRS zones, that wouldn't have been possible without it, it doesn't get the due credit for. The on track racing in this era is some of the best in F1 history, its everything we were questing for if you go back and read the old forum. It saddens me to see people not appreciating it now it's here. You know what F1 is like, another era will be along soon enough and who knows how good the racing will be in that one, so just enjoy what we have now while it lasts.

Author:	codename_47 [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
StefMeister wrote: coldtyre wrote: StefMeister wrote: Quality should be put above quantity & I'd get more enjoyment watching a race with fewer higher quality overtakes than a race with more passes which were less interesting to watch via DRS or whatever. Except it never happened like that in F1 post-1995. There was neither quantity nor quality. I can remember a dozen good racing scraps & some good overtaking moves during that time although I accept there wasn't as many as there could have been. However you have to take refueling into consideration, From race 1 where refueling was introduced (Brazil 1994) we saw the quality of the racing decline as overtaking moves from the track & into the pits. When refueling was banned in 2010 we already saw an increase in overtaking (2010 featured more overtaking than any season since 1989) & with things like the F-ducts & double diffusers banned for 2011 along with the High-deg Pirelli tyres coming in we likely would have seen a further increase in overtaking & better racing even without DRS. I think back to what we were told when DRS was announced, They were going to experiment with it & were going to run races without it before ditching it in favor of ground effects a few years later. But they haven't experimented with it, They have never tried a dry race without it, They have added a 2nd DRS zone to most tracks (Including tracks & areas that didn't need a 2nd zone) & have decided to stick with DRS more permanently instead of making the changes to the cars that were originally proposed. I also think that if they wanted some sort of 'overtake' button there were/are far better systems with the P2P style system we see in Indycar & elsewhere been by far a better solution. Since P2P can be used anywhere at any time & by all drivers the lead driver can defend using it & its in the drivers hands when/where they use which introduces an element of strategy & you very rarely see P2P style systems produce the sort of easy/guaranteed 'highway passing' that DRS often does. Instead of just sticking with DRS & continuing to use it the way they have been, Try other systems, Try using DRS in other ways & lets find a solution that allows opportunities to overtake without producing the sort of easy passes the DRS all too often has produced. There are alternatives so lets give them a try rather than just sticking with the DRS we have had since 2011. Mind you, having said everything I did in my last post, you're right, DRS was supposed to be a temporary solution while they worked on ground effect. Then they decided ground effect would be too much work, why bother when DRS was working so well. Ground effect would've been tast. BOO!! DRS SUCKS!!!

Author:	James B [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
StefMeister wrote: I think back to what we were told when DRS was announced, They were going to experiment with it & were going to run races without it before ditching it in favor of ground effects a few years later. But they haven't experimented with it, They have never tried a dry race without it, They have added a 2nd DRS zone to most tracks (Including tracks & areas that didn't need a 2nd zone) & have decided to stick with DRS more permanently instead of making the changes to the cars that were originally proposed. Aye, the impression I get was that it was the intention all along and it was introduced by stealth because it would've been unpopular with the fans had they introduced as a permanent solution. Obviously work was done on ground effect but it wouldn't surprise me if DRS was going to be part of that KERS in its F1 form was introduced by stealth too. It was promoted as a way of recycling energy as found in road cars. It wasn't until shortly before the 2009 season that everyone realised that it was being introduced as a powerboost button. When it was first suggested that F1 should have a powerboost button, the reaction was negative. So they snuck it in quietly under the guise of an energy recovery system and people didn't think anything of it And re: comments from the past, I also remember comments from people suggesting they didn't want F1 to be like MotoGP with too many overtakes because that would devalue the achievement of overtaking. Context is everything

Author:	Artur Craft [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
Quote: "It's up to the fans if that's what they want to do," he told media in the paddock at the Brazilian Grand Prix. "Maybe people will put investment in the team. "I think it's a disaster. We don't want begging bowls. If people can't afford to be in Formula 1, they have to find something else to do. "If I sit in a poker game and I can't afford to be there with the other people, I get killed and have to leave." "I don't know what they do with their money," he said. "I don't spend their money. We just give it to them. "We give the teams nearly $900 million a year. We don't spend it. "The trouble is they haven't really understood. People want to win, all the teams here want to win. Some teams have got more money and they spend it. "When I had a race team a few years ago, in fact a few hundred years ago, I used to run the team according to how much money we could spend and we won the world championship. "That's what they don't do. They don't seem to understand that somebody is going to be last." Bernie's view on Caterham's crowd funding Well, Bernard, you give $900 mi but, for instance, 100 of those are given to Ferrari just for being on the grid. Bottom teams don't get more than 30-40 mi in total, while 3-4 top teams receives 150-180 millions. But I don't miss the new teams, at all. Probably the only one here but I love the 3rd car idea if they won't distribute the money in a more equal manner. Bottom teams will never be able to design decent cars with the little they earn from CVC/FOM. As it is, I prefer more cars, with quality, on the grid rather than useless 4-6 spots of Marussia, Caterham, HRT. The danger of 3 cars per team is when/if Mateschits or a manufacturer(Mercedes) get out of the sport. The best would be for FOM to give less money to hyped incompetent teams like Ferrari and reward, more decently, newcomers as Haas.

Author:	momo1911 [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
I just don't consider it to be "good racing" when the atmosphere is entirely contrived. Drivers dont need drs. They also don't need to be punished like school children for racing "too hard". There's something to be said for the organic mature in which races used to play out. This year is bad for competition. I don't care if two drivers are battling when only two drivers have a chance. The sport is very unhealthy at the moment, anybody can see that. The changes had good intentions but they haven't fixed the real problem which is f1 becoming a solely money and analytics-driven sport. In the past, a designer with a great mind could build a capable car. No longer the case. Inevitable? Maybe. But its still not in kind with the type of sport the world had before.

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Author:	micha [ Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
Tobias wrote: When DRS was introduced, I was told it could be used everywhere and by anyone. Instead they stuck to designated zones (and unlimited in quali and race until the end of 2012) It should have separated the boys from the men imho.

Author:	RtN [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
Caterham are nearly halfway to their goal, Rubens might get his goodbye after all.

Author:	LucasWheldon [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 2:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
RtN wrote: Caterham are nearly halfway to their goal, Rubens might get his goodbye after all. unless Kolles appears and then gets away with the money

Author:	Gaara [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
Kevin Eason just said third cars for Ferrari and Red Bull for next year

Author:	BrainPain [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
Wow, why only those two teams then if that is true?

Author:	Gaara [ Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 2014 Random F1 Discussion
Well Brundles stated that they and McLaren have first refusal on running three cars and McLaren have already stated it's too late to run a third for Melbourne.