2012 Random F1 Discussion

Tobias · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:34 pm

well, no one was expecting a death in 1994 either. The reactions would be the same and probably little would be done because this is about as safe as it gets.

when Ratzenberger had his crash there was just a guy in the eurosport booth talking about how strong carbon fibre is and that it meant guys like Barrichello were lucky to walk away from crashes that would have been fatal not long before... it was a weird coincidence I always found.

RtN · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:07 pm

If there were to be a fatality, it would most probably be through a driver getting hit on the head.

Therefore, the most likely outcome would be the introduction of canopies.

micha · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:14 pm

When Ratzenberger crashes I was watching it with a friend and we said "oh he's just knocked out...he'll be in the car again tomorrow...". Then we saw them starting to perform CPR on him and knew it was bad, really bad.

I don't think the only chance of a fatality it getting hit on the head. There's a picture of a privately owned Ferrari floating the web where the driver's feet are sticking out. Not sure if it was a botched repair job or a production fault but production faults can always happen.
There are things no-one can prepare for. Maybe there is a certain angle where the siderests and HANS won't do a proper job. Who knows.

I think there is a downside to having no fatalities for a long time. People start to believe racing is safe and several crashes, like Kubica in Canada, seem to proof that. Once it does go wrong we get knee-jerk reactions like in 1994. Like the improvised chicane in Spain which caused more problems than it solved.....

Fish88 · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:33 pm

micha wrote:

I don't think the only chance of a fatality it getting hit on the head. There's a picture of a privately owned Ferrari floating the web where the driver's feet are sticking out. Not sure if it was a botched repair job or a production fault but production faults can always happen.
There are things no-one can prepare for. Maybe there is a certain angle where the siderests and HANS won't do a proper job. Who knows.

That was the same chassis Schumacher had his accident with at Silverstone in 1999, so probably a shitty repair job.

RtN · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:35 pm

That Ferrari was a 1999 car, wasn't it? The technology has come so much further since then. I think it was Brundle who said that you could drop a modern F1 monocoque from the top of a multistorey car park and it wouldn't have a dent in it because of the technology that's used today.

The survival cell really is exactly that.

sebbl · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:43 pm

acopip wrote:

Nowadays, I think that Formula 1 is a lot more sensitive. A death would cause a lot of mess, because no-one is excepting it.

We saw something similar last year in Indycar Series after Dan Wheldon died... The show must go on.

micha · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:48 pm

It still has to be fabricated and things that get fabricated can have flaws.

This is exactly what they said prior to Imola 1994. Technology has come so much further since then...the monocoque is soo strong......etc etc etc.

Prior to that horrible Saturday we've seen multiple crashes. Berger 1989, Zanardi in Spa, a Larrousse totalled. I recall a Minardi with the front torn off exposing the feet of a driver. An Arrows, In Monaco, where the engine was torn off. All crashes of which they said "if you had that 10-20 years ago, you'd be death...".
Today we say the same.

As long as there is physically a person in the car or near places the car, even by freak accident, can come racing is dangerous and the chance of someone dying is there.
The real danger is having the illusion racing is save....

gd49 · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:51 pm

As others have said, I don't think much would change. For a driver to die now would have to be freak circumstances, I don't think the cars can get much safer. Indycar didn't make any dramatic modifications after Wheldon's death, the main lesson learnt was to avoid situations where the freak accident is much more likely to occur, like running the entire field in a pack together as happened at Las Vegas.

StefMeister · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:33 pm

gd49 wrote:

Indycar didn't make any dramatic modifications after Wheldon's death

The changes to the way they went racing on those types of ovals were pretty dramatic.

They went from high downforce, flat out all the way round pack racing to real low downforce, drivers having to really drive the cars & no pack racing.

That change wasn't simply down to the new car as prior to Las Vegas 2011 the DW12 was still running high downforce on the big ovals & may well still have seen some pack racing. After Dan's death they scrapped the high downforce package for the fast ovals & spent the rest of the year tweaking & changing the new low downforce packages.

Have to say they did a great job with that as the racing on the fast ovals was a massive improvement both in terms of the racing & in terms of safety.

gd49 · PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:36 pm

StefMeister wrote:

gd49 wrote:

Indycar didn't make any dramatic modifications after Wheldon's death

The changes to the way they went racing on those types of ovals were pretty dramatic.

They went from high downforce, flat out all the way round pack racing to real low downforce, drivers having to really drive the cars & no pack racing.

That change wasn't simply down to the new car as prior to Las Vegas 2011 the DW12 was still running high downforce on the big ovals & may well still have seen some pack racing. After Dan's death they scrapped the high downforce package for the fast ovals & spent the rest of the year tweaking & changing the new low downforce packages.

Have to say they did a great job with that as the racing on the fast ovals was a massive improvement both in terms of the racing & in terms of safety.

Yeah what I meant was they didn't add canopies or massive roll over structures to the cars to prevent head impacts. You've said in much more detail than I have about the changes they did make to prevent the pack racing.

Artur Craft · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:14 am

micha wrote:

....There's a picture of a privately owned Ferrari floating the web where the driver's feet are sticking out. .....

If it's the one I'm thinking about, then that is a fake one, as far as I heard.

Mäth · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:45 am

Mika Kimi wrote:

I don't speak French or anything but I think this is a great article about Ronnie Peterson. Even if you can't read French like me, it still has some great photos and videos with it:

http://www.webringf1.com/blog/ronnie-pe ... -1978-1571

That's a great read, thanks

RtN · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:54 am

So unless Mansell gets some silly ideas, that can't really happen in proper F1 races.

Juihi · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:26 am

This looks interesting

Quote:

BBC Two will broadcast a new series which follows three high-profile celebrity motorsport enthusiasts as they retrace the steps of Great British racing legends.

Racing Legends will see celebrity motorsport fans Sir Patrick Stewart, Sir Chris Hoy and James Martin pay tribute to Sir Stirling Moss, Colin McRae and Sir Jackie Stewart by spending time with them and the people who knew them best.

Through a combination of revealing interviews and fascinating archive footage, each celebrity will learn about the vehicles they drove and the engineering they employed, to understand what put them in pole position.

Each programme will focus on the celebrities ultimate mission: to emulate the legend by re-enacting one of their greatest-ever races, in a rare classic car. With the original team of mechanics re-assembled, and the racetracks re-opened, this is the enthusiasts’ opportunity to remind the world just how special the racing legend really was.

http://www.touchline.tv/tv/motorsport/c ... on-bbc-two

micha · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:55 am

gd49 wrote:

StefMeister wrote:

gd49 wrote:

Indycar didn't make any dramatic modifications after Wheldon's death

The changes to the way they went racing on those types of ovals were pretty dramatic.

They went from high downforce, flat out all the way round pack racing to real low downforce, drivers having to really drive the cars & no pack racing.

That change wasn't simply down to the new car as prior to Las Vegas 2011 the DW12 was still running high downforce on the big ovals & may well still have seen some pack racing. After Dan's death they scrapped the high downforce package for the fast ovals & spent the rest of the year tweaking & changing the new low downforce packages.

Have to say they did a great job with that as the racing on the fast ovals was a massive improvement both in terms of the racing & in terms of safety.

Yeah what I meant was they didn't add canopies or massive roll over structures to the cars to prevent head impacts. You've said in much more detail than I have about the changes they did make to prevent the pack racing.

In my memory the USA is much more aware of the dangers and don't really knee-jerk. NASCAR didn't when Earnhart died. Indy didn't when that rising star (forgot name) died and when Wheldon died.

ellis · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:00 am

Tobias wrote:

well, no one was expecting a death in 1994 either. The reactions would be the same and probably little would be done because this is about as safe as it gets.

I'd argue it was coming and expected.

Lehto, Pedro Lamy, Wendlinger, Barrichello and Alesi all suffered relatively serious injuries at the start of the year. It was the year when F1 finally became too fast for the safety standards it had at the time.

micha · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:08 am

ellis wrote:

Tobias wrote:

well, no one was expecting a death in 1994 either. The reactions would be the same and probably little would be done because this is about as safe as it gets.

I'd argue it was coming and expected.

Lehto, Pedro Lamy, Wendlinger, Barrichello and Alesi all suffered relatively serious injuries at the start of the year. It was the year when F1 finally became too fast for the safety standards it had at the time.

Wendlinger was at Monaco, after Imola.

It was coming but as I stated before, people thought F1 was so extremely save that a death was pretty much impossible. Today they think the same......

ellis · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:13 am

hm? I know Wendlinger was after Imola, that's why I said the start of the year.

Lamys more serious accident at Silverstone also after Imola.

Gabriel · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 10:22 am

micha wrote:

In my memory the USA is much more aware of the dangers and don't really knee-jerk. NASCAR didn't when Earnhart died. Indy didn't when that rising star (forgot name) died and when Wheldon died.

You are talking about Tony Renna?

I don't remember IRL making changes in the cars after that crash. Not much is known about the crash itself, other than the car pretty much ended in the grandstands. And the chassis formula was the same that made so many cars go airborne the following years.

RtN · PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:16 pm

micha wrote:

In my memory the USA is much more aware of the dangers and don't really knee-jerk. NASCAR didn't when Earnhart died. Indy didn't when that rising star (forgot name) died and when Wheldon died.

NASCAR made the HANS device mandatory as a direct consequence of Earnhardt's death. IndyCar couldn't really do anything in direct response to Renna and Wheldon's accidents because they were both at the end of a season or beyond.

I'm not suggesting that, were something to happen in F1, that the teams would all have to turn up at the next race with tubular frames hastily bolted onto the cars, but there's already a lobby for canopy protection within F1 and if a driver dies who could have been saved by it, it would be introduced very quickly, in my opinion.

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2012 Random F1 Discussion

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