FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS VON ÖSTERREICH 2014

kals · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:16 pm

RtN wrote:

Mercedes obviously has the best complete package.

And never a truer word has been said. Red Bull doesn't have the best package for the first time since 2009 (2010 and 2012 are arguable). That's it. End of story. In 2005 the tables were turned on Ferrari with the change in tyre rules and I don't remember Michael or any Ferrari management bitching and moaning about any disadvantage like Red Bull do.

Fabs · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:58 pm

kals wrote:

RtN wrote:

Mercedes obviously has the best complete package.

And never a truer word has been said. Red Bull doesn't have the best package for the first time since 2009 (2010 and 2012 are arguable). That's it. End of story. In 2005 the tables were turned on Ferrari with the change in tyre rules and I don't remember Michael or any Ferrari management bitching and moaning about any disadvantage like Red Bull do.

BUT THAT WAS RENAULT DID IT.

StanV · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:07 pm

It is and always has been rather hard for Ferrari to blame anyone but themselves in terms of a sub-par package, since they are the ones providing that complete package

kals · PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:42 pm

Oh I'm sure they did yes. But they didn't air their dirty laundry in public.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:08 am

They definitely did in 2003 when rules were changed in the wake of their dominance.

Thinking back that far (and a little further) imagine telling a 90s f1 fans that Renault would be the worst engine, ferrari only ok and merc dominating!
Amazing how things turn around.

Fascinated to find out where Honda will fit into all this too.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:14 am

codename_47 wrote:

They definitely did in 2003 when rules were changed in the wake of their dominance.

Not really. Ferrari didn't complain about Bridgestone in 2003, instead Ferrari and Bridgestone complained about Michelin.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:23 am

Well I meant they moaned about the rule changes instigated by the fia to............hmm.....MUST you keep laughing?

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:29 am

Again, I don't disagree but I'm referring to moaning about major suppliers in the public.

webbsy · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:31 am

I believe that the Merc and Red Bull chassis are pretty much equal, maybe Red Bull just slightly ahead. The difference being that the inefficencies with the Renault are compromising the ultimate Red Bull set up, whilst the Merc is able to maximise theirs. I think all being equal it would be a really close run thing, not on team dominating. All due credit to Mercedes the team, cause I think they have desined an excellent chasis and that is kind of getting overlooked.

ellis · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:02 pm

If Ferrari had several brake failures a weekend, and braking distances which were significantly longer than the other cars, everybody would be telling them to swap brake suppliers. Somehow, when it's engines, it seems to be accepted that you put up with the crap.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:27 pm

I think you're misunderstanding my point ellis. I'm not being a sympathizer to Ferrari, far from it. I'm merely using the example of the 2005 season where Bridgestone had a significantly poorer product than Michelin and how Ferrari didn't complain about Bridgestone in the public eye. That's the opposite of how Red Bull are treating Renault.

In the past 18-24 months I can only think of one instance where Ferrari has air dirty laundry in public, that was when Di Montezemelo scolded Alonso mid-last year.

ellis · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:40 pm

Substitute Ferrari for someone else in my post.

If Williams had a bunch of brake failures and had longer braking distances than everybody else, and had to turn down the braking power to avoid failures...we'd be telling Williams to change brake supplier. Why is it different for engines?

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:43 pm

What we have to say in regards to suppliers has no relevance to the point I'm making. My point is only about a team bitching about suppliers in public, not whether you or I or anyone else on TBK think a team should change a supplier.

ellis · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:50 pm

Ok, so lets reword it again.

If Williams had a bunch of brake failures and had longer braking distances than everybody else, and had to turn down the braking power to avoid failures...Williams would criticize the brake supplier. Why is it different for engines?

And this happened for other stuff. There were many complaints about Michelins single incident. In NASCAR (don't know if it's different now, I haven't watched in a while), the teams criticized the tyres a LOT. And those who got stuck with Xtrac Gearboxes due to the FIA arse up with the new teams openly criticized failures...

aerogi · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:37 pm

Scotty wrote:

Can't swap a Merc engine for a Renault engine between practice.

elaborating on that, are teams allowed to change engine suppliers during the season? I would assume not.

BrainPain · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:39 pm

I guess they pretty much would have to build a whole new car if they were to switch engines?

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:23 pm

can't see why Ferrari had to complain about bridgestones in 2005. the japanese used to make tires to last, and Michelin made it to go fast. McLaren and Renault suited well and dominated the season, Ferrari didn't mostly due to the chassis, I guess (and because the other teams with Bridgestones was Jordan and Minardi, so Bridgestone development was also critical)

but anyway Red Bull should remember that they aren't the only ones with the right to win, looks like a legendary brazilian champion

Vassago · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:38 pm

kals wrote:

If this era is all about the engines and Newey's trick are useless under the current regs, then how is it that Red Bull are second in the constructors championship and are beating all the Merc teams bar Mercedes itself? Let's give a little credit to the work and achievement that Mercedes have created. It's not all about the engines.

Because they haven't forgotten how to make a better job done. Williams lets itself down by poor tactics time and time again plus RBR still has the most effective pit crew. Let's be serious, if RBR had Mercedes engine, Vettel would be leading the championship again.

BrainPain · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:32 pm

Yeah, since Ricciardo has beat Vettel conpletely so far this season, Vettel would lead the championship.

RtN · PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:35 pm

BrainPain wrote:

I guess they pretty much would have to build a whole new car if they were to switch engines?

Brawn had to hack the arse of the BGP 001 up to fit that last-minute Mercedes in there. Any gain made by switching the engine would presumably be offset by the losses caused everywhere else on the car.

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FORMULA 1 GROSSER PREIS VON ÖSTERREICH 2014

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