Союз Советских Социалистических Республик Grand Prix 2014

Gaara · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:34 pm

Yay, German engineering :thumbsup:

ellis · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:38 pm

alex1369 wrote:

Fabs wrote:

They won't do that, however I heard on the BBC that Pirelli wants to increase the tyre degredation on next year's tyres.

I doubt, after Silverstone 2013 im sure they dont wanna see another puncture fest...
Get back the tyres from 2012, we had exciting races with those

Silverstone was caused by the teams using the tyres on the wrong side of the car.

Ian-S · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:41 pm

and corner cutting.

kals · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:48 pm

Yeah but...

...it was still Pirelli's fault. The teams said so.

bigears · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:05 pm

Gaara wrote:

Yay, German engineering :thumbsup:

The second photo was at a test session at the Ring. Maybe it was expected to have teething problems (or even a fire?!) in a new car?

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:06 pm

blame it on the drivers

Fabs · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:01 pm

Gaara wrote:

Yay, German engineering :thumbsup:

Lol, that has to be the worst argument ever.

gkmotorsport · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:16 pm

Fabs wrote:

Gaara wrote:

Yay, German engineering :thumbsup:

Lol, that has to be the worst argument ever.

Nope, a damn good argument for the quality of German crash barrier design. And the Feuerwehr, obvs.

Coldtyre · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:17 pm

At least he tried to give one. You gave none, except the nationality of the car maker, and that has to be the poorest argument in favor of (or against) a brand ever since industries have been massively subcontracted and delocalised.

Fabs · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:24 pm

coldtyre wrote:

At least he tried to give one. You gave none, except the nationality of the car maker, and that has to be the poorest argument in favor of (or against) a brand ever since industries have been massively subcontracted and delocalised.

The fact my mom's previous car was a Renault which conked out all the time and the fact her Golf afterwards was excellent. I drive that Golf now, excellent.

iono that's my reason.

I don't trust french engineering

Rubmifer · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:28 pm

I've been driving Peugeot my entire life, and only once did it break down. Other than that I haven't had any real problems with it.

StanV · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:42 pm

I was just trying to argue that nobody is going "well look at all these engine troubles the Renault-powered teams are having, I may have to reconsider my purchase of a Renault!", because one does not automatically mean the other. Same goes for Pirelli being perfectly capable to create great tyres for road use while not showing that (deliberately) in F1.

But at least we now know that Fabs does not like French cars. Thanks Fabs!

gkmotorsport · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:14 pm

It's very subjective these days, because of the decentralisation. My in-laws had a Grand Scenic and had no end of problems with it. We had a slightly older Laguna auto, and it was flawless until the day someone drove into it. On the flipside, I've owned four German cars and each one has had its own variety of annoying electrical niggles.

Just to completely throw form on its head, I also owned an Alfa 156, which - apart from a snapped throttle cable (which could be a consumable in any older car) - is probably the most reliable and thrashable car I've owned.

More on topic - ok, only just - I had Pirellis on a VW Passat, and they were like limpets in the wet.

Artur Craft · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:51 pm

gkmotorsport wrote:

You are aware that Pirelli have to design their tyres to very strict requirements handed to them by the FIA, which cement their performance into a certain window, and that the teams all know this?

All I know is the extremelly vague talk from Pirelli that FIA allegedly ask them to bring tyres that degrade fast and therefore require some 2-3 pitstops.

If they can't produce tyres that work on a wider temperature range, that's down to their capability, I would say, because I simply can't see FIA requiring them to make tyres that works properly only in a small temperature window.

The thing is: it's very difficult to come up with a chemical compound which has roughly the same physical characteristics over a broad temperature range. It involves tones of research by top chemists and the know how varies quite a lot through out all these tyre manufacturers as they have very different resources/money to invest on their's R&D departments.

StanV wrote:

Ellu wrote:

I feel sorry for Pirelli that the regulations are turning their brand into crap. I've been through 2 sets of P-Zero Nero's in 5 years and 150.000k and never had any complaint. There said, i think that our road tyres have a different compound haha ;-)

There are still so many people thinking Pirelli honestly can't do better than what they are obliged to do in F1. Yet I don't see anyone doubting Renault engines in street cars either.

Pirelli is the 5th tyre company in the world, so their tyres are good. Smaller companies, than Pirelli, like Korea's Kumho or Hankook also can produce good tyres.

The thing is that, when it comes to overall quality, Pirelli tyres usually are worse than those of the larger companies(Bridgestone, Michelin, Goodyear and Continental) as it is to be expected.

Check this survey results from the biggest tire retailer in the world:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyres ... sp?type=MP

Pirelli P Zero Nero is a good tire but a far cry from the top. It matches a lower Continental tire but the top specification of the German manufacturer is in 4th.

See how it wears much more than the best evaluated tire despite giving far less grip in dry and wet. It also provides less noise and ride confort.

You're wasting your money, Ellu.

Ian-S · PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:53 pm

The biggest problem with German (Merc) cars is the cost of repairs, I had a 190E back in the day and it had some sort of cooling fan bolted onto the engine, it had some milled housing around the bearing and that all broke, when we tried to get a replacement it had to come from Germany at a cost of 3x the cars worth, fortunately one of the benefits of motor racing is there's usually someone round that can fake the part for much less.

Then a few weeks after that the automatic transmission went crazy and that was another £1500 to get that repaired.

Suffice to say as much as I love Merc's, I'll never be buying another one.

I gave up trying to educate people as to the tyre requirements of F1, some people are genuinely so stupid they wouldn't understand if you explained in "Plain English", most casual fans base their purchasing on the recommendation of the Kardashians so it just flies way over their head.

gkmotorsport · PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:09 am

Ian-S wrote:

The biggest problem with German (Merc) cars is the cost of repairs, I had a 190E back in the day and it had some sort of cooling fan bolted onto the engine, it had some milled housing around the bearing and that all broke, when we tried to get a replacement it had to come from Germany at a cost of 3x the cars worth, fortunately one of the benefits of motor racing is there's usually someone round that can fake the part for much less.

Then a few weeks after that the automatic transmission went crazy and that was another £1500 to get that repaired.

Suffice to say as much as I love Merc's, I'll never be buying another one.

Unfortunately, I'd probably agree here. Our original C-Class was a beaut, but just had too many small problems, any of which could've de-walleted us. Same for the E-Class we later got.

Ian-S wrote:

I gave up trying to educate people as to the tyre requirements of F1, some people are genuinely so stupid they wouldn't understand if you explained in "Plain English", most casual fans base their purchasing on the recommendation of the Kardashians so it just flies way over their head.

I'm on the verge of this with some people.

Artur Craft wrote:

All I know is the extremelly vague talk from Pirelli that FIA allegedly ask them to bring tyres that degrade fast and therefore require some 2-3 pitstops.

When you say "vague" and "allegedly", you mean "frequently spoken of" and "basic contractual requirement", right?

Artur Craft wrote:

If they can't produce tyres that work on a wider temperature range, that's down to their capability, I would say, because I simply can't see FIA requiring them to make tyres that works properly only in a small temperature window.

What you see does not necessarily equate with reality. Didn't you confidently and repeatedly tell us that F1 cars would be barely quicker than GP2 this year?

Artur Craft wrote:

Pirelli is the 5th tyre company in the world, so their tyres are good. Smaller companies, than Pirelli, like Korea's Kumho or Hankook also can produce good tyres.

The thing is that, when it comes to overall quality, Pirelli tyres usually are worse than those of the larger companies(Bridgestone, Michelin, Goodyear and Continental) as it is to be expected.

5th in what metric? Turnover? Sales? Alphabetical order? I don't see what this has to do with an incredibly specific arm of their business that likely has nothing to do with its road arm apart from name. I do wonder if you think a road-spec P-Zero simply rolls off of the F1 line and has treat cut in it.

Also, your opinion is inevitably based on what is available in your market. I have had an excellent set of Pirellis, and a prior set of Michelins on the same car which wore out like they were made of cheese. Does this mean that Michelin simple weren't 'capable' enough that time, or that a particular tyre was less suited to my car and driving style?

EsbenT · PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:51 am

gkmotorsport wrote:

More on topic - ok, only just - I had Pirellis on a VW Passat, and they were like limpets in the wet.

This is an excellent simile :yes:

Artur Craft · PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:38 am

gkmotorsport wrote:

When you say "vague" and "allegedly", you mean "frequently spoken of" and "basic contractual requirement", right?

no contract was ever made public, to my knowledge. Hell, I wonder how these claimed "requirements" would even be formally worded in such case.

BTW, I don't doubt FIA/Bernie asks Pirelli to bring tyres for 2-3 pitstops. But I simply can't see it stretching to involde tyre's operational temperature window.

gkmotorsport wrote:

What you see does not necessarily equate with reality. Didn't you confidently and repeatedly tell us that F1 cars would be barely quicker than GP2 this year?

I'm not sure if I said that or not. I remember claiming them to be 3-5s slower than 2013(during pre season), depending on the circuit. What I remember claiming about GP2 and F1(and FR3.5) was that they would corner at about the same speed now that 2014 cars got reduced downforce and their weight was brought to the feeder series' levels of around 690kg

F1 cars will always lap some 5-7s quicker as their peak power is around 850HP versus GP2's 600 and FR3.5's 530HP.

gkmotorsport wrote:

5th in what metric? Turnover? Sales? Alphabetical order? I don't see what this has to do with an incredibly specific arm of their business that likely has nothing to do with its road arm apart from name. I do wonder if you think a road-spec P-Zero simply rolls off of the F1 line and has treat cut in it.

Also, your opinion is inevitably based on what is available in your market. I have had an excellent set of Pirellis, and a prior set of Michelins on the same car which wore out like they were made of cheese. Does this mean that Michelin simple weren't 'capable' enough that time, or that a particular tyre was less suited to my car and driving style?

5th in revenue.

Racing tyres have almost nothing to do with road tyres. Everything is radically different, from compound to internal construction(carcass, plies...)

What the road tyre performance do is indicate the engineering capability of the manufacturer.

I'll put the rest under the spoiler to not over polute with this off topic

Spoiler:

Well, sorry for taking the thread to a whole unrelated discussion

Schumifan · PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:00 am

Artur Craft wrote:

no contract was ever made public, to my knowledge. Hell, I wonder how these claimed "requirements" would even be formally worded in such case.

Why would a contract ever be made public? And are you seriously suggesting the contract had no details other than:

"hi pirelli,

pls provide tyres that degrade fast, iono maybe 2 or 3 pitstops

thx,
fia"

TBK-Light.com

Союз Советских Социалистических Республик Grand Prix 2014

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