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Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015
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Author:  Justin Time [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

Fabs wrote:
Justin Time wrote:
Wow, you must be bitter.

The "Lewis Hamilton" - witch hunt of this thread was utterly amusing, but also a bit saddening. In a way its like on the x factor where making fun of people and judging them is conveyed as socially acceptable. And I'm a bit disappointed that people who have a function on this forum vividly take part in it.

This is ridiculous, I don't give a flying fuck it's Lewis. Rules are rules. Getting tired of people saying everyone hates Hamilton and want him punished. His team should be punished.

Well, even if you exclude the stuff from after the race was finished, have a look at the pages before that.

Author:  codename_47 [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

The main thing I've taken from this thread is either the multi quote function is broken or no one knows how to quote

Author:  kals [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

codename_47 wrote:
The main thing I've taken from this thread is either the multi quote function is broken or no one knows how to quote


or nea doesn't know how to update the board :whistling:

Author:  Eddington mains [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

Jason wrote:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/LewisHamilton/status/640548207781613568[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/LewisHamilton/status/640548515819692032[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/LewisHamilton/status/640549628220473344[/tweet]


Fuckin Cock Womble - hurry up and retire you C**t

Author:  LucasWheldon [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

one good thing is that finally that double points farce at Abu Dhabi might get pointless

Author:  BrainPain [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

Also, that is removed for this year.

Author:  codename_47 [ Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

Dropped scores fiasco won't be an issue too :whistling:

Author:  webbsy [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

StefMeister wrote:
Quote:
Having heard from the Technical Delegate, the Team Representatives and the Pirelli Team Tyre engineer, the Stewards have determined that the pressure in the tyres concerned were at the minimum start pressure recommended by Pirelli when they were fitted to the car. In making this determination regarding the pressures, the Stewards noted that the tyre warming blankets had been disconnected from their power source, as is normal procedure, and the tyres were significantly below the maximum permitted tyre blanket temperature at the time of the FIA’s measurement on the grid, and at significantly different temperatures from other cars measured on the grid. Further, the Stewards are satisfied that the team followed the currently specified procedure, supervised by the Tyre Manufacturer, for the safe operation of the tyres.

Therefore the Stewards decide to take no further action.

Nevertheless, the Stewards recommend that the Tyre Manufacturer and the FIA hold further meetings to provide clear guidance to the teams on measurement protocols.


Just because you stuff up and make an error, doesn't absolve you of the fact that you broke the rules.

The key I think there is "significantly different from the temperatures from other cars measured"

Martin Brundell on Sky F1 said he asked Rob Smedly how quickly the tyres cooled off out of the blankets. Smedly told him it would take a couple of minutes to 5 minutes to cool that much.

So Merc took the tyre blankets off 2- 5 minutes before everyone else? or Rob Smedly doesn't know what the hell he is talking about?

My take away from that stewards statement is this. Merc knew that they could argue their way out of running the tyres under pressure because they could prove that they were legit at the time of checking.

Its no coincidence that Rosberg who was stuck down in 5th on the grid had a huge discrepancy in his tyre pressures.

Author:  siggy [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

webbsy wrote:
StefMeister wrote:
Quote:
Having heard from the Technical Delegate, the Team Representatives and the Pirelli Team Tyre engineer, the Stewards have determined that the pressure in the tyres concerned were at the minimum start pressure recommended by Pirelli when they were fitted to the car. In making this determination regarding the pressures, the Stewards noted that the tyre warming blankets had been disconnected from their power source, as is normal procedure, and the tyres were significantly below the maximum permitted tyre blanket temperature at the time of the FIA’s measurement on the grid, and at significantly different temperatures from other cars measured on the grid. Further, the Stewards are satisfied that the team followed the currently specified procedure, supervised by the Tyre Manufacturer, for the safe operation of the tyres.

Therefore the Stewards decide to take no further action.

Nevertheless, the Stewards recommend that the Tyre Manufacturer and the FIA hold further meetings to provide clear guidance to the teams on measurement protocols.


Just because you stuff up and make an error, doesn't absolve you of the fact that you broke the rules.

The key I think there is "significantly different from the temperatures from other cars measured"

Martin Brundell on Sky F1 said he asked Rob Smedly how quickly the tyres cooled off out of the blankets. Smedly told him it would take a couple of minutes to 5 minutes to cool that much.

So Merc took the tyre blankets off 2- 5 minutes before everyone else? or Rob Smedly doesn't know what the hell he is talking about?

My take away from that stewards statement is this. Merc knew that they could argue their way out of running the tyres under pressure because they could prove that they were legit at the time of checking.

Its no coincidence that Rosberg who was stuck down in 5th on the grid had a huge discrepancy in his tyre pressures.


Merc didn't prove anything. A steward or a fia representative measured the pressure. They don't even try and deny this, they simply ignore it. It doesn't even matter what Merc did or didn't do. They were below the required pressure. Fia said that it would hand out severe penalties if they found out since the teams apparently tried things in Spa practise to beat the tests by Pirelli. Yet, here we are. Arguing away a measured fact. They should man up and take the punishment....

Does anybody know tire temps during a race? And pressures?

Tire temps are between 100 and 110 degrees C during a race. Tire blanket max 110 degrees C. If Mercs tires were at 19,5 psi at 110 degrees C, it's only physics to tell you that the pressure drops when temps drop. The point is, if they were at the minimum lower limit with the highest tire temp, they would be running lower tire pressures during a race when the tire temps drop below 110. So, in effect, the cars drove at least illegally in the pits and waiting on the starting grid by simple logic.

Author:  webbsy [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

The other way of looking at this is Hamilton's pressures were 1.5% under pressure and Rosberg's 5.6% under.
Action should have been taken against Rosberg at least.

What a can of shit the FIA have opened up here. Is there a minimum amount of time before the tyre blankets have to come off? So a team can have their tyres checked on the grid, conceivably 5 minutes before the race, be 100% OK, take of the tyre blankets, let the tyres cool down to below the recommended pressure and say, no, our tyres complied with the regulations 100% as they were checked by the FIA/Pirelli?

Author:  Justin Time [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

The FIA wasn't clear on the measurements and during the race the tyre pressure of Hamiltons rear was always above 20.5 PSI, as an FIA official said. So the pressure was only too low because the tyre cooled off before the race and Merc was off the hook. The verdict even said that the pressure was measured when the Merc tyres were significantly cooler than their competitors.

Author:  siggy [ Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

Do you have a source of that 20.5 PSI?

Either way, it still is silly to ignore the measurement. At the time of measurement, the car was technically illegal. Unless they deny the measurement. Besides, why would it take an hour and a half to show them data? That should be a 5 minute conversation. Why are procedures even relevant for the measurement?

They just maximized the pressure to the rules and went blatantly under at time of measurement. I'm sure waiting on the grid with ever cooling tires and thus dropping tire pressure didn't help the legality either. I thought the car had to be legal all the time, especially when the lights are out.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. If his name was Schumacher, the whole forum would have exploded of him keeping victory. There have been dqs and bans for a lot less.

Author:  kals [ Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

I've seen so many views across internet forums on how and why Mercedes were clearly "cheating" on Sunday, yet few have stopped to consider the wider reaching consequences of what did and didn't happen when the "illegal" readings were taken. Some have pointed out and questioned the flaw in the due process, but reading Will Buxton's blog post I feel he hits the nail firmly on the head - https://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2 ... from-harm/

Author:  gkmotorsport [ Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Formula 1 Gran Premio d'Italia 2015

kals wrote:
I've seen so many views across internet forums on how and why Mercedes were clearly "cheating" on Sunday, yet few have stopped to consider the wider reaching consequences of what did and didn't happen when the "illegal" readings were taken. Some have pointed out and questioned the flaw in the due process, but reading Will Buxton's blog post I feel he hits the nail firmly on the head - https://willthef1journo.wordpress.com/2 ... from-harm/


Gary Anderson was in broad agreement here - the FIA should have either black-flagged both cars immediately after the start and DQd them, or at least black-flagged them for the purpose of making them put on tyres which complied with the directive.

Reproduced here for those who don't have an Autosport sub:

Gary Anderson wrote:
So after the tyre failures at Spa, the drivers berated Pirelli to such an extent that the powers that be (ie Bernie Ecclestone) had to take them into a dark room and explain the facts of life.

Basically, he said, "without tyres, you guys are out of a job, so keep it zipped".

Pirelli invested a lot of time and effort to find the reason for the failure Sebastian Vettel suffered at Spa. This is like sifting through the bits and pieces left over from a plane crash, when it can take years to identify the cause of the failure.

But Pirelli had only a few days. All it could do is look at all of the available information at that point in time.

Pirelli's answer was that it suffered more tyre cuts at Spa than normal and that the teams were running outside of the tyre engineers' design brief.

The further you run the tyre, the thinner the tread gets. This increases the likelihood that one of those cuts will go through the tyre, resulting in a deflation. Whether it's a slow deflation or an instant one is out of their hands.

Pre-Monza, Pirelli and the FIA issued a technical directive that the minimum tyre pressures used at Monza were to be 21psi at the front and 19.5psi at the rear, with a maximum tyre temperature of 110C.

To explain a little about tyres, the higher the pressure, the stiffer the tyre. Because of braking and corner entry - which puts a very high load on the front tyres – you normally want the front end to be at reasonably high pressure.

But high pressure means less track-surface compliance, so in effect less grip.

As far as the rear is concerned, you need the tyre to be at a high enough pressure to give stability. But it also needs to be low enough to give as big a tyre-to-ground contact patch as possible – this is vital for traction.

The temperature and the pressure go hand-in-hand, and that is why Pirelli states a maximum of 110C.

Some teams have been heating the tyres higher than this to get better grip when the car leaves the pits.

It's mainly the fronts that this is done to, as it momentarily improves the balance and allows the driver to work the whole car better – especially on a qualifying lap.

With the higher temperature, there will be an increase in tyre pressure, but when the car goes out on the circuit, the tyre temperature will drop and, in turn, the pressure will be too low.

This can overwork the shoulder of the tyre. Basically, this area of the tyre has to flex, but flex it too much or for too long and it will fail.

Heating the tyres to more than 110C is a bit silly anyway. In my experience, anything above 80C compromised the compound grip level.

It might give you a slightly better balance when you leave the pits, but basically it cooked the tyre tread and made it like a harder compound.

In my day we would have started free practice at a track like Monza aiming to run the tyres at a hot pressure of 20psi front and 18psi rear, and then adjusted them around that pressure depending on the car's handling characteristics.

If the turn-in to the corner is too pointy, add half a psi to the front. If traction is poor, increase rear tyre pressure by the same amount.

For a circuit like Hungary, 20psi front and 16psi rear would be a good starting point because of the traction required in the low-speed corners and the fact there are no real high-speed turns.

So, from my point of view, when it was discovered before the race that on the grid both Mercedes were running with lower-than-permitted tyre pressures, it should have been reacted to then.

Everyone in the pitlane will know that when the cars came around onto the grid, those tyre pressures would have been lower again.


Some people have said that Pirelli saw the pressures and were OK with it, but it's not Pirelli's responsibility to make sure its tyres are running at the correct pressures – it is the team's responsibility.



So what should have been done? The fact of the matter is that both cars were running illegally, so a black flag should have been shown and both cars retired immediately.

But – and it's a big but – that's not what we want to see, because we want to see racing. So if I'd had anything to do with it, I would have made the team call both cars into the pits at the end of the first lap to change tyres to those of the same compound complying with the pressure and temperature directive.

I also believe that this is what should have been done Spa, when the Williams team fitted Valtteri Bottas's car with three tyres of one compound and one of the other.

He received a penalty, but was still able to complete the stint with the mismatched set.



So when Toto Wolff says that Mercedes was not doing anything against the spirit of the tyre regulations, I completely agree. But the team was pushing the directive to the limit and missed it by that little bit. If you don't leave a big enough window to comply, you should pay the price.

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