2017 F1 Random Discussion Thread

Justin Time · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:17 pm

kals wrote:

The dislike nee hatred that Kaltenbourn receives from TBK members has always puzzled me. She's always comes across as inoffensive and noncontroversial, has steered Sauber through some good seasons as well as a few poor ones like other team principles have. Yet the incident with VdG as well as the financial stability of the team seem to be her legacy.

Let's ignore the multiple podiums the team achieved, nearly winning the 2012 Malaysian GP and still keeping the team on the grid in a period when multiple teams have closed it's doors (one of them twice) for financial reasons.

Well, Monisha took the position of the team boss in October 2012, so go figure.

Maybe it was an uphill battle for her, but I sill don't agree with the way she lead the team. Especially with her being a lawyer. Good riddance. However, if Kolles makes it... I don't even want to imagine that.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:22 pm

Justin Time wrote:

kals wrote:

The dislike nee hatred that Kaltenbourn receives from TBK members has always puzzled me. She's always comes across as inoffensive and noncontroversial, has steered Sauber through some good seasons as well as a few poor ones like other team principles have. Yet the incident with VdG as well as the financial stability of the team seem to be her legacy.

Let's ignore the multiple podiums the team achieved, nearly winning the 2012 Malaysian GP and still keeping the team on the grid in a period when multiple teams have closed it's doors (one of them twice) for financial reasons.

Well, Monisha took the position of the team boss in October 2012, so go figure.

Maybe it was an uphill battle for her, but I sill don't agree with the way she lead the team. Especially with her being a lawyer. Good riddance. However, if Kolles makes it... I don't even want to imagine that.

Monisha was in a senior managerial role through to being promoted to CEO in October 2012, so she had everything to do with team performance until that point.

You mention you don't agree with the way she lead the team. How did she lead the team and what was it you disagreed with?

EDIT - in fact, Kaltenborn had been CEO of Sauber since 2010 and in October 2012 replaced Peter Sauber as Team Principle

Quote:

Kaltenborn, who originally joined Sauber in 2000 as head of its legal department, has been CEO since January 2010 and owns a third of the company.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103273

aerogi · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:26 pm

It is amazing last 'proper' wet race at Spa was in 1998. It rains like once every day in my country...

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:18 pm

so Colin Kolles is back to the scene. are he going to bring back Albers and other people just for consideration?

Justin Time · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:36 pm

kals wrote:

Justin Time wrote:

kals wrote:

The dislike nee hatred that Kaltenbourn receives from TBK members has always puzzled me. She's always comes across as inoffensive and noncontroversial, has steered Sauber through some good seasons as well as a few poor ones like other team principles have. Yet the incident with VdG as well as the financial stability of the team seem to be her legacy.

Let's ignore the multiple podiums the team achieved, nearly winning the 2012 Malaysian GP and still keeping the team on the grid in a period when multiple teams have closed it's doors (one of them twice) for financial reasons.

Well, Monisha took the position of the team boss in October 2012, so go figure.

Maybe it was an uphill battle for her, but I sill don't agree with the way she lead the team. Especially with her being a lawyer. Good riddance. However, if Kolles makes it... I don't even want to imagine that.

Monisha was in a senior managerial role through to being promoted to CEO in October 2012, so she had everything to do with team performance until that point.

You mention you don't agree with the way she lead the team. How did she lead the team and what was it you disagreed with?

EDIT - in fact, Kaltenborn had been CEO of Sauber since 2010 and in October 2012 replaced Peter Sauber as Team Principle

Quote:

Kaltenborn, who originally joined Sauber in 2000 as head of its legal department, has been CEO since January 2010 and owns a third of the company.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/103273

Signing five (or was it 6?) drivers for two race seats, taking their money and acting as if it's a proper thing to do (resulting in two lost court cases with Vdg and Sutil). Not paying your workers for months and your suppliers for two years, etc. I work a lot in the region around the lake Zurich and you hear plenty of stories about it. Sauber started off in 2010 with a lot of money still from BMW but they didn't manage to capitalise (pardon the pun) on it. The downturn under Monisha, as well as her behaviour is just sad.

siggy · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:47 pm

StefMeister wrote:

siggy wrote:

Burti's incident would have changed nothing with gravel or asphalt.

An Ex-FOM guy that post's on the F1Fanatics site was saying not too long ago that the gravel/grass that was at Blanchimont at the time did make Burti's accident worse because as soon as the car hit the gravel it broke the suspension which also took out the brake lines, The uneven grass also hindered the cars ability to lose speed as it was just bouncing across it & not losing much speed. It was apparently felt that had it been tarmac at the time he'd have retained the ability to brake & had some steering input which would have meant a lower speed impact at possibly a better angle.

That was apparently the primary reason they put tarmac runoff there for the following year.

Okay, good to hear. I must admit, i couldn't remember there was gravel before the grass. In any case, i do see the logic, but how far is F1 willing to go to improve safety even with freak accidents? Look at the Tamburello corner. Just because of the death of Senna was it changed. Others crashed there too.

Anyway, personally, safety is fine, but you have to draw the line somewhere. Imagine a field full of Maldonado's and Petrovs. They would have to race on an airport to increase safety. Public not allowed. Only cameras operated by robots.

About Kalteborn, good riddance.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:55 pm

Justin Time wrote:

Signing five (or was it 6?) drivers for two race seats, taking their money and acting as if it's a proper thing to do (resulting in two lost court cases with Vdg and Sutil). Not paying your workers for months and your suppliers for two years, etc. I work a lot in the region around the lake Zurich and you hear plenty of stories about it. Sauber started off in 2010 with a lot of money still from BMW but they didn't manage to capitalise (pardon the pun) on it. The downturn under Monisha, as well as her behaviour is just sad.

So let's focus on the facts shall we.

Do you know why Sauber signed 4 drivers (although I believe it was 5) for 2015? It wasn't intentional but as a direct result of Jules Bianchi's accident at the 2014 Japanese GP. Sauber had signed Bianchi and with it would come Ferrari money. Sutil and VdG had contracts for 2015 but as happens in F1, the team went after higher paying drivers (which isn't unusual in F1) and attempted to annul the prior contracts. Sutil took the matter to court privately, he also signed up as a Williams reserve driver. VdG did what he did which was amusing but very undignified.

As for not paying suppliers. Yeah, that's hardly a new issue in F1 or something that is exclusive to Sauber. Kaltenborn and the rest of the Sauber board kept the team on the grid. HRT, Caterham, Marussia and Manor all closed their doors while failing to pay creditors. Yet there has never been as many negative comments about their team principals as their is for Kaltenborn.

Kaltenborn's legacy should be the teams performance over many years. Not those two individual issues.

RtN · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:00 pm

Monisha fraudulently obtained $18 million of other people's money and had to be taken to court twice in order for the victims to get it back.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:16 pm

RtN wrote:

Monisha fraudulently obtained $18 million of other people's money and had to be taken to court twice in order for the victims to get it back.

So by that logic you must hate many other team bosses in F1 over the past 30+ years.

Stop pretending this is exclusive to Monisha.

RtN · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:21 pm

If you can find another deception on that scale where the team owner was entirely in the wrong (as proven by at least two separate courts) then I will be impressed.

Usually in these cases the driver has either been a mug at the contract table or has breached the contract themselves. Neither apply in these cases.

Justin Time · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:39 pm

kals wrote:

Justin Time wrote:

Signing five (or was it 6?) drivers for two race seats, taking their money and acting as if it's a proper thing to do (resulting in two lost court cases with Vdg and Sutil). Not paying your workers for months and your suppliers for two years, etc. I work a lot in the region around the lake Zurich and you hear plenty of stories about it. Sauber started off in 2010 with a lot of money still from BMW but they didn't manage to capitalise (pardon the pun) on it. The downturn under Monisha, as well as her behaviour is just sad.

Sutil and VdG had contracts for 2015 but as happens with Sauber, the team went after higher paying drivers (which isn't unusual in F1) and attempted to annul the prior contracts. Sutil took the matter to court privately, he also signed up as a Williams reserve driver. VdG did what he did which was amusing but very undignified.

Fixed it for you. So you just said it yourself, they had contracts with two drivers, took their money, decided to get drivers which paid more and didn't give the money back to the other two drivers. Which in turn resulted in two lawsuits which probably cost quite a bit of money since they lost both of them. Bravo. First class leadership.

About not paying your employees and suppliers: this is never okay. Not in any team. Just because someone else does it, doesn't make it acceptable.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:43 pm

RtN wrote:

If you can find another deception on that scale where the team owner was entirely in the wrong (as proven by at least two separate courts) then I will be impressed.

Usually in these cases the driver has either been a mug at the contract table or has breached the contract themselves. Neither apply in these cases.

Why is scale the metric to determine guilt and hatred? Unethical behaviour is just so regardless of the quantity in question.

So Arrows with Verstappen doesn't count then? Neither does Diniz against the same team? McLaren and Jaguar over Adrian Newey's contract? How about Bernie's bribery case? The current revenue structure which some teams were forced to sign under duress? Jarno Trulli versus Tony Fernandez? Jean Todt going after Phillippe Streiff? The FIA sending in the goons against Dr Gary Harstein?Eddie Jordan being sued by Porsche? Michael Schumacher and Benetton versus Jordan?

None of the above may be on the monetary scale you're using to justify your dislike of Kaltenborn, but that is besides the point. Instead you're being incredibly selective with your point and vitriol against this one person. F1 hasn't been called the Piranha Club for nothing. It doesn't mean I agree with the questionable ethics but complaining about one person because of perceived scale while ignoring all of the other unethical dealings across F1's history is very contradictory.

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:48 pm

what bothered me the most is that the drivers were highly criticized for chasing their rights

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:52 pm

Justin Time wrote:

kals wrote:

Justin Time wrote:

Signing five (or was it 6?) drivers for two race seats, taking their money and acting as if it's a proper thing to do (resulting in two lost court cases with Vdg and Sutil). Not paying your workers for months and your suppliers for two years, etc. I work a lot in the region around the lake Zurich and you hear plenty of stories about it. Sauber started off in 2010 with a lot of money still from BMW but they didn't manage to capitalise (pardon the pun) on it. The downturn under Monisha, as well as her behaviour is just sad.

Sutil and VdG had contracts for 2015 but as happens in F1, the team went after higher paying drivers (which isn't unusual in F1) and attempted to annul the prior contracts. Sutil took the matter to court privately, he also signed up as a Williams reserve driver. VdG did what he did which was amusing but very undignified.

Fixed it for you. So you just said it yourself, they had contracts with two drivers, took their money, decided to get drivers which paid more and didn't give the money back to the other two drivers. Which in turn resulted in two lawsuits which probably cost quite a bit of money since they lost both of them. Bravo. First class leadership.

Fixed it back for you.

Driver's sponsors often pay in advance and there are clauses in contracts to protect all parties involved. Kaltenborn represents the entire team and she and her executives were protecting the interests of hundreds of employees having just lost a significant amount of cash flow from Ferrari following Bianchi's accident. The purpose for attempting to hold on to the money was to keep the team afloat. I'm not saying it was right, but the team (not just Kaltenborn) did what they needed to do in the circumstance.

Justin Time wrote:

About not paying your employees and suppliers: this is never okay. Not in any team. Just because someone else does it, doesn't make it acceptable.

Ok so shouldn't you be making negative comments about other teams and team principals then? The point is people here haven't and don't. Only against Kaltenborn.

RtN · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:55 pm

And what makes you think I support or would defend any of the people you've mentioned? Indeed, I have made my opinion on the FIA going after Streiff and Hartstein very clear.

"Scale of the deception" does not refer just to the finances involved but also to the way in which the deception was carried out. Monisha already had GvdG and Sutil under contract as race drivers for 2015 before she signed Jules. So one driver (probably Sutil) was going to get screwed over regardless. There is also the fact that she ignored two court orders (one from Switzerland, one from Australia) to settle the case with GvdG, even under threat of jail, and was willing to see the team's property impounded and the end of Sauber before Bernie got involved rather than do the right thing. So much for caring about the future of the team.

kals · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:10 pm

RtN wrote:

And what makes you think I support or would defend any of the people you've mentioned? Indeed, I have made my opinion on the FIA going after Streiff and Hartstein very clear.

True, those are just examples to prove my point.

RtN wrote:

"Scale of the deception" does not refer just to the finances involved but also to the way in which the deception was carried out. Monisha already had GvdG and Sutil under contract as race drivers for 2015 before she signed Jules. So one driver (probably Sutil) was going to get screwed over regardless. There is also the fact that she ignored two court orders (one from Switzerland, one from Australia) to settle the case with GvdG, even under threat of jail, and was willing to see the team's property impounded and the end of Sauber before Bernie got involved rather than do the right thing. So much for caring about the future of the team.

Did Kaltenborn ignore those orders herself, or were those orders ignored on the instruction of the team's lawyers and a group decision made by Sauber management?

As for the case of signing drivers before Bianchi, again that's not unusual in F1 or exclusive to Sauber (not Kaltenborn).

Yes she's a team principal, the figure head of the team, the spokesperson, etc... and the ultimate point where the buck stops. She has some responsibility because her role and visibility, but it doesn't mean she is 100% totally at fault with everything that has happened and deserve the treatment some people here give her. In the same way she isn't ultimately responsible for the team's success under her reign because there is a large group of contributors, but she should deserve some recognition.

Again, I'm puzzled by the dislike / hatred of Kaltenborn when she's one of a large group of people in Sauber's decision making process and has been part of some successful achievements since the team rebuilt after BMW withdrew.

I'll leave it there. I enjoy the conversation with you @

RtN. We're not going to change each other's minds, not that we're trying to. We view things differently and I respect your position even if I don't agree.

siggy · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:20 pm

kals wrote:

Again, I'm puzzled by the dislike / hatred of Kaltenborn when she's one of a large group of people in Sauber's decision making process and has been part of some successful achievements since the team rebuilt after BMW withdrew.

I was thinking about this. Why Kalteborn, yes you are right, practically the whole business world is this cut-throat and borderline criminal, in a civilian kind of way, not lawfully. You mentioned Verstappen earlier, that was the end of 2001, start of 2002, at least here in The Netherlands we 'knew', that Verstappen forum was a ridiculous hotbed for every sliver of news. But 2002 was still very early for 'the common man' to have internet. What i vaguely remember was rumours and more rumours, and Verstappen never really talked to the press, he didn't even want (or liked) his fans. His choice, don't get me wrong. But I do wish he would have knocked Tom Walkinshaw in the face, instead of some random bystander on a karting track (twice) or his (ex) wife.

Jokes aside, my point is, Kaltenborn's cases were always in the limelight, she was a lawyer, not an engineer or racing fan. Does it make her worse then others, no, she fitted in just fine, unfortunately. Personally for me, trying to keep the team a float is an honorable thing, but screwing over some individuals for the greater good is dodgy, but claiming there is nothing wrong, not talking and basically absolving herself of any wrongdoing, that just doesn't sit well. I'm sure there was a reason, but she played the laws and seemingly ignored any kind of sense of what is right or wrong.

Any way, you mentioned Bernie solved the impasse around VdG? I thought Peter Sauber himself solved it? Like daddy had to rescure daughter.

Fabs · PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 6:27 pm

I agree with kals

that is all

webbsy · PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:45 am

Don't worry Kals, this dentist chap who is rumoured to be replacing her is worse. Let's see Kolles go for broke and bankrupt team number three.

Coldtyre · PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:03 am

Scotty wrote:

What I've learnt from this discussion is that Adrian Sutil has a surprising number of fans.

I'm not homophobic, but

Oh crap. There's no way out of a sentence that starts like this, is there?

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