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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:28 am 
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It's all a storm in a teacup in the end, and I don't mind the fact that it's spiced up a series that's been a bit poor on rivalries lately. There is now no trust between Webber and Vettel and there won't be from this point forwards, but Mark will probably retire this year or next and Red Bull will replace him with someone who's clearly stamped #2 to avoid any confusion. The interesting thing is that Mark now has no trust in the team's ability to control Vettel, so whatever year he is retiring I wouldn't be surprised to see him ignore team orders if it allows him to put one over Vettel. Not in the honest way Webber has in the past, but in the duplicitous way Vettel has now shown is tolerated.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:28 am 
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If it meant so much to Red Bull, they could have easily pulled Vettel in for a pit stop.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:34 am 
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kals wrote:
If it meant so much to Red Bull, they could have easily pulled Vettel in for a pit stop.


Yes, totally, also see Horner's comments about it not really being worth it for Vettel to give the position back. I feel they have been forced into making a public thing about it due to the media's reaction (much like Ferarri with Austria 2002) and Webber's public reaction to it on the podium. The thing that I think Red Bull fear the most is an Alan Jones Carlos Reutemann thing.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:37 am 
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Ferrari wrote:
I shit you not.....

John Watson: Red Bull should give Vettel one-race suspension.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1 ... en-1783903


basically what will happen is this. The next time a RBR 1-2 manifests itself near the end of a race, with Vettel the more likely to be in the lead, he will give up the position to Webber.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:16 am 
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Scotty wrote:
How much different would it have been if Webber didn't back off as much? Vettel came out 2 seconds behind, instead of 4 tenths? I am a racing driver myself (a bad one) but you can take every advantage you get. I've driven up to 6 car accidents under yellows and sped past guys who were held up purely by the accident and thus finished infront of them purely because I was more reckless.


http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060472/tri ... =qt0121462


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:25 am 
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Why is this being referred as the 'Multi21' instruction?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:05 pm 
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coldtyre wrote:
@Justin, I understand that.

In any case, this story has brought quite a light on F1. People who don't watch the races came to me and asked about what happened, as the general media emphasised the way this victory was acquired.

I think this might benefit the sport a little bit. Human stories like this are more relatable to the general public than battles and strategies.

I absolutely agree with you on that. I think it causes more people to be interested in the sport and in what's going on, which is a really good thing. F1 drivers are perceived (and mostly right so) as pr-robots, so every now and then it's nice to see that when real emotions break through, that they are still human, because it allows me to connect with them on another level.
One of the most memorable moments of the recent past for me was when Hamilton went on his rant after the Monaco GP (2011?).


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Mika Kimi wrote:
Why is this being referred as the 'Multi21' instruction?


Multi 21 is an engine map setting which is basically a low fuel a low revs setting. Both Seb and Webber were asked to switch to multi 21 to help preserve the engines. Seb didn't do this which enabled him to push harder than Webber.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:20 pm 
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nea wrote:
Mika Kimi wrote:
Why is this being referred as the 'Multi21' instruction?


Multi 21 is an engine map setting which is basically a low fuel a low revs setting. Both Seb and Webber were asked to switch to multi 21 to help preserve the engines. Seb didn't do this which enabled him to push harder than Webber.

From what I've heard, "Multi" just means to conserve everything on the car, and the 21 is the order they were to hold position in.

If they wanted Vettel out front for instance, it would have been Multi 12.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Justin Time wrote:
coldtyre wrote:
@Justin, I understand that.

In any case, this story has brought quite a light on F1. People who don't watch the races came to me and asked about what happened, as the general media emphasised the way this victory was acquired.

I think this might benefit the sport a little bit. Human stories like this are more relatable to the general public than battles and strategies.

I absolutely agree with you on that. I think it causes more people to be interested in the sport and in what's going on, which is a really good thing. F1 drivers are perceived (and mostly right so) as pr-robots, so every now and then it's nice to see that when real emotions break through, that they are still human, because it allows me to connect with them on another level.
One of the most memorable moments of the recent past for me was when Hamilton went on his rant after the Monaco GP (2011?).

Definitely agree, this whole saga has been great for the sports publicity and certainly has people who would never think twice about the sport talking about it. Some may argue it sets the sport in a negative light regarding team orders and what not but I think it has shed light on an intriguing aspect of the sport which we don't see as often, and it's bloody entertaining!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:25 pm 
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Woodski wrote:
nea wrote:
Mika Kimi wrote:
Why is this being referred as the 'Multi21' instruction?


Multi 21 is an engine map setting which is basically a low fuel a low revs setting. Both Seb and Webber were asked to switch to multi 21 to help preserve the engines. Seb didn't do this which enabled him to push harder than Webber.

From what I've heard, "Multi" just means to conserve everything on the car, and the 21 is the order they were to hold position in.

If they wanted Vettel out front for instance, it would have been Multi 12.


Thanks both, now I have an idea on what everybody's talking about. :D


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:35 pm 
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Scotty wrote:
Main point here is I think everyone is being a retard by chosing a side, because you can't blame either drive for what they did.


I agree. That's why the blame should fall on Horner for using team orders in the second round of the season.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Ferrari wrote:
That's why the blame should fall on Horner for using team orders in the second round of the season.


No, just no. Team orders have been used at all stages of seasons since F1 began. Horner cannot be criticized for using team orders.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:41 pm 
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kals wrote:
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Couldn't derail my logic, huh? It's never completely irrelevant how far can you push the limits against your teammate compared to the rest of the grid.


Yeah ok, because you did such a GREAT job derailing my logic :roll:

What's got into you today? You've been around this board for years and I've never seen you this argumentative. And over what? A minor point. I don't get why you've decided to get on your soapbox over this.


I'm just tired of Red Bull's dominance, that's all ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:36 pm 
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kals wrote:
No, just no. Team orders have been used at all stages of seasons since F1 began. Horner cannot be criticized for using team orders.


I don't disagree about use of team orders and I understand the use of team orders. However, Horner is the one who's preached in the past to the media that Red Bull allows their drivers to race. I would also question using team orders to stop the driver who's delivered Red Bull the past three WDC from winning. Especially when you have the opportunity for Vettel to gain maximum points against Alonso.


2010 German GP with team orders banned. But still.....
[youtubeidiot]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lV36FVWLXHI[/youtubeidiot]


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:41 pm 
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That's a good point of discussion Ferrari.

Personally, I can't look back at 2010 and use that as a comparable for the actions displayed at the 2013 Malaysian GP. At that time team orders were banned, now they are not. Back then the tyres were different and much more durable. Now they are not and the instruction given by Red Bull was to protect Vettel and Webber's lead against the Mercedes behind them. Overusing the tyres at that point in the race was the team's concern, same with Mercedes. An extra pit stop or tyres going off would have been catastrophic.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:43 pm 
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Ferrari wrote:
kals wrote:
No, just no. Team orders have been used at all stages of seasons since F1 began. Horner cannot be criticized for using team orders.


I don't disagree about use of team orders and I understand the use of team orders. However, Horner is the one who's preached in the past to the media that Red Bull allows their drivers to race. I would also question using team orders to stop the driver who's delivered Red Bull the past three WDC from winning. Especially when you have the opportunity for Vettel to gain maximum points against Alonso.


Red Bull refused to treat Webber like Barrichello and very seemingly ready to see Vettel pull away from Webber in the standings to justify the #2 comments based on results alone later on. It just happened that Webber suddenly had a chance to win the race so early in teh season, before Vettel which was against the script. Since they didn't give Webber #2 status they were forced to keep him in the lead but then Vettel had the last laugh anyway.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:39 pm 
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Scotty wrote:
Being a Webber fan I've wanted to find an excuse to blame Vettel. But I couldn't really find an excuse I myself wouldn't use if I were him.

Ultimately, F1, if it were perfect, would be a race series where drivers raced each other hard, giving 100% for every lap, but it's not. In 1956, there would be plenty of drivers who won races by driving giving less than 100% and winning via mechanical sympathy. Part of this is the 2013 equivalent of that story. Webber I'm starting to think backed off too much, if anything, and we will never know by how much he did. He had around 4.5 to 5 seconds up on Vettel and the undercut was only 2 laps (correct me if I'm wrong), losing 2.5 seconds a lap by turning from full fuel map to zero fuel map wouldn't be that dramatic. But yet, Vettel was probably asked to go from fuel +5 to fuel -5 himself.

Main point here is I think everyone is being a retard by chosing a side, because you can't blame either drive for what they did.


It was a 1-lap undercut, Vettel did 2 purple sectors on his outlap.

I honestly believe that had Vettel not come out alongside Webber after the final stop, this wouldn't have happened. Sebastien got the red mist when he saw how close he was.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:34 pm 
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Vassago wrote:
Ferrari wrote:
kals wrote:
No, just no. Team orders have been used at all stages of seasons since F1 began. Horner cannot be criticized for using team orders.


I don't disagree about use of team orders and I understand the use of team orders. However, Horner is the one who's preached in the past to the media that Red Bull allows their drivers to race. I would also question using team orders to stop the driver who's delivered Red Bull the past three WDC from winning. Especially when you have the opportunity for Vettel to gain maximum points against Alonso.


Red Bull refused to treat Webber like Barrichello and very seemingly ready to see Vettel pull away from Webber in the standings to justify the #2 comments based on results alone later on. It just happened that Webber suddenly had a chance to win the race so early in teh season, before Vettel which was against the script. Since they didn't give Webber #2 status they were forced to keep him in the lead but then Vettel had the last laugh anyway.


Mate you are reading far too much into this. If it wasn't part of the script, Red Bull had a number of less controversial ways they could've used to ensure that Webber was behind Vettel rather than the other way around.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:56 pm 
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My criticism of Vettel is for apologising because it makes him look weedy.

It'd be funnier if he said 'Yes, but that is why I have 3 titles, and he has none'.

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