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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:24 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:30 pm 
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The plot thickens

That's a dangerous situation for Red Bull, because basically they've just admitted that it's OK for Sebastian to challenge Mark for the lead instead of holding station like every other sensible team would do in this situation. That the McLarens were behind is a bollocks excuse - that's them saying they're OK with Seb overtaking Mark, nay even encouraging it, even if that means leaving Mark exposed to the McLarens, and probably losing a further place or 2 and more WCC points. Essentially, they're saying Vettel winning the WDC is more important than Red Bull winning the WCC

They're becoming more and more like Benetton every week


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:35 pm 
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jesus christ man, take off your mark webber hat and look at this rationally. they are fucking RACING RACE CARS, to tell someone they can't pass someone else because they're teammates is retarded. it'd be just as retarded if it was webber closing in on vettel.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:39 pm 
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Horner: Webber asked Vettel to back off

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Red Bull Racing boss Christian Horner has revealed that Mark Webber asked for Sebastian Vettel to 'back off' from him the lap before their collision in the Turkish Grand Prix.

Vettel was attempting to pass Webber for the lead approaching the final corners on lap 41 of the race when contact between them left Vettel with race-ending damage and dropped Webber from first to third - handing McLaren a one-two.

Although Webber had led the race from the outset, Vettel closed on him just prior to the crash and, in an exclusive interview with AUTOSPORT, Horner said Webber had radioed the team asking if Vettel could ease off - a request Red Bull was unwilling to allow with the McLarens of Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button close behind.

"It was quite clear that with the speed advantage the McLarens had on the straight, it was impossible to fall back into them," Horner told AUTOSPORT.

"Mark had requested the lap before to ask Sebastian to back off a bit. There was no way you could do that because of the McLarens being right there."

Horner acknowledged that Vettel had the faster pace at the time of the incident.

"It looked like Mark started to struggle with the rear tyres a bit more - that's what it looked like on the pit wall," said Horner. "And Sebastian, between laps 38 and 39, really closed up rapidly to the back of Mark, obviously got a run on him on lap 40 and they both found themselves in a situation they didn't want to be in."

He remains confident that the crash has not done irrevocable damage to the intra-team relationship.

"We're fortunate that both our guys are mature, balanced individuals," Horner said. "Obviously emotions were running high on Sunday, but they're both professionals.

"They are probably not going to be down the pub for a drink together, but they will continue to work professionally in the manner that they have done in the forthcoming races. They work for the team at the end of the day and they know what the rules are."


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84093


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:47 pm 
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I am just as much of a fan of racing as anyone. But looking at it from a team perspective, in this scenario team orders make sense. It's not like Webber was way off the pace with a problem, like, say, Alonso in China 4 years ago - Vettel was faster but not fast enough to mount a serious challenge. Most of the other top teams would do the same - McLaren and Ferrari certainly would and have done this in the past. Red Bull need to learn that to be a top team in F1, you can't please everyone. It wouldn't have been good to watch but it would've been effective - they probably would've held on for the 1-2

Either that or they just wanted Vettel in front and they didn't care if Webber was going to drop to 4th, which would've cost them 6 points in the WCC. And if you consider the whole engine adjustment story, it isn't as far-fetched as it might seem


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:39 pm 
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James B wrote:
I am just as much of a fan of racing as anyone. But looking at it from a team perspective, in this scenario team orders make sense. It's not like Webber was way off the pace with a problem, like, say, Alonso in China 4 years ago - Vettel was faster but not fast enough to mount a serious challenge. Most of the other top teams would do the same - McLaren and Ferrari certainly would and have done this in the past. Red Bull need to learn that to be a top team in F1, you can't please everyone. It wouldn't have been good to watch but it would've been effective - they probably would've held on for the 1-2

Either that or they just wanted Vettel in front and they didn't care if Webber was going to drop to 4th, which would've cost them 6 points in the WCC. And if you consider the whole engine adjustment story, it isn't as far-fetched as it might seem

Except that he was, and he even passed him. Have you even watched the race?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:09 pm 
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He didn't pass him. He got alongside him and then tried to drive him off the road. And that was only after the alleged engine adjustments


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:12 pm 
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James B wrote:
He didn't pass him. He got alongside him and then tried to drive him off the road.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:14 pm 
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But he didn't pass him. He didn't clear the car. He got his front wheel ahead but that is not a pass


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:24 pm 
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James B wrote:
other top teams would do the same - McLaren and Ferrari certainly would


Erm...Button and Hamilton were having a great battle just after that incident....


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:37 pm 
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Misterfreeman87 wrote:
James B wrote:
other top teams would do the same - McLaren and Ferrari certainly would


Erm...Button and Hamilton were having a great battle just after that incident....

Until they were then told to stop by the team. I very much doubt the team was particularly pleased about that battle - Lewis certainly wasn't


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:54 pm 
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BrainPain wrote:
James B wrote:
I am just as much of a fan of racing as anyone. But looking at it from a team perspective, in this scenario team orders make sense. It's not like Webber was way off the pace with a problem, like, say, Alonso in China 4 years ago - Vettel was faster but not fast enough to mount a serious challenge. Most of the other top teams would do the same - McLaren and Ferrari certainly would and have done this in the past. Red Bull need to learn that to be a top team in F1, you can't please everyone. It wouldn't have been good to watch but it would've been effective - they probably would've held on for the 1-2

Either that or they just wanted Vettel in front and they didn't care if Webber was going to drop to 4th, which would've cost them 6 points in the WCC. And if you consider the whole engine adjustment story, it isn't as far-fetched as it might seem

Except that he was, and he even passed him. Have you even watched the race?


A pass isnt a pass until you are ahead. It was almost a pass...when Vettel says `I was just concentrating on the breaking zone` he should have been concentrating on the car beside him more, suggesting a complete lack of awarness of his surroundings, thus race craft. Webber was stubborn in not moving over, which as DC points out he has every right to do, while i feel Vettel was either impatient or arrogant in thinking that since his front wheels were ahead that this constitutes a pass and the driver was going to yeild and wilt away even before he was completely ahead.
As I said a pass isnt a pass until you are past, and Vettle wasnt past.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:17 am 
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I reckon it's Hermann Tilke's fault because, if the braking point wasn't there, Vettel woudn't have to worry about it and could be completely focused on his battle...but that is my own opinion...IMO... :D


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:04 am 
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I'm just wondering, yet again, what Christian Horner's reasons for coming out with this are. Is he trying to make the point that Webber didn't want to be passed? Is he mentioning that this was probably a direct result of Webber being instructed to conserve fuel while Vettel was not? Why say this a day after Horner and Marko had made statements clarifying that they did not see Webber at fault?

This is all irrelevant bollocks around the basic facts of what happened during the attempted pass. But any team with half a brain would know to pull its head in and start talking about the next race. It's almost like they're trying to draw out the controversy.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:10 am 
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As much as I think Vettel was in the wrong here and I support Webber, some of the logic by Webber fans is really like Sebastian's reaction after the accident.

Vettel was ahead, he just had to wait 1-2 seconds and he would have completed the pass.
James B wrote:
He didn't pass him. He got alongside him and then tried to drive him off the road.

This is just a completely asinine comment.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:49 am 
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Nice pussy.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:19 am 
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James B wrote:
But he didn't pass him. He didn't clear the car. He got his front wheel ahead but that is not a pass

I think you should call it a pass as he was 2/3 over Mark Webber at the moment of the incident


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:25 am 
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Burlap Sack wrote:
James B wrote:
He didn't pass him. He got alongside him and then tried to drive him off the road.

This is just a completely asinine comment.

Well I didn't mean that he actually tried to take him out of the race, but it's not like he doesn't have form for dangerous brainless moves like this - just a few races ago in China he moved across on Lewis in a similar way in the pitlane. Have a look at it again - it's a carbon copy, albeit at a much slower speed

The guy's a hazard out there. The problem is he doesn't have the racecraft of his rivals so he's having to resort to dirty tricks like this to try and get past. You can perhaps get away with it in junior series because other drivers are more likely to concede but in F1, you can't. As Lewis found out, that isn't going to help you build the respect of the other guys out there

Shaddix wrote:
James B wrote:
But he didn't pass him. He didn't clear the car. He got his front wheel ahead but that is not a pass

I think you should call it a pass as he was 2/3 over Mark Webber at the moment of the incident

Their wheels were still overlapping. It's not a pass. A pass has to be completed


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:44 pm 
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James B wrote:
Their wheels were still overlapping. It's not a pass. A pass has to be completed

So according to your theory, if you are a micrometre ahead at the start-finish line on the last lap, it's not a pass.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:51 pm 
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Burlap Sack wrote:
James B wrote:
Their wheels were still overlapping. It's not a pass. A pass has to be completed

So according to your theory, if you are a micrometre ahead at the start-finish line on the last lap, it's not a pass.

That's a different context, because the intentions are different. Vettel's aim was to pass Webber, i.e. get around and clearly ahead of him, whereas someone overtaking on the run to the line just wants to have his nose in front

I suppose a good way of putting it is by saying that being ahead and completing a pass are 2 different things


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