2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GP - SUZUKA

codename_47 · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:25 pm

Антон wrote:

The safety car don`t save from tractors..

That was before the recent "SC on track=automatic lowered speeds via the ECU or whatever it is that controls the SC pace" though eh.

And yes, F1 got lucky there too, sending out a tractor to rescue cars at the bottom of a hill that had become a lake while there were still cars to come through the scene wasn't smart.

But, you know, everything is wise in hindsight eh?

kals · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:27 pm

codename_47 wrote:

Антон wrote:

The safety car don`t save from tractors..

That was before the recent "SC on track=automatic lowered speeds via the ECU or whatever it is that controls the SC pace" though eh.

And yes, F1 got lucky there too, sending out a tractor to rescue cars at the bottom of a hill that had become a lake while there were still cars to come through the scene wasn't smart.

But, you know, everything is wise in hindsight eh?

Technically the SC wasn't yet controlling the pace as it had only just emerged from the pit lane and drivers were only encountering the T1 conditions for the first time. This isn't the best example.

Антон · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:30 pm

Fish88 · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:31 pm

I think they are hesitant to call for a SC since the SC periods are so long nowadays. I think they need to work on speeding up the periods and thus allowing them more room to throw them. Remember Sutil in Hockenheim, that was also SC worthy given the blind spot and fast accelerating cars at that part of the track.

Coldtyre · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:31 pm

We aren't talking about an undebatable, rigid rule here. It's common sense really. Regardless of the outcome, at the minute they put that thing out there, images of 1994 and Interlagos 2003 flashed up in my mind.

Don't make it a new rule, it's not needed. But common sense people. Corner is getting wetter every second. Cars are doing over 200s there. There's not even 10m of run-off. I am the biggest fan of entertainment above lawyering the sport, but this was way out of line.

kals · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:33 pm

codename_47 wrote:

kals wrote:

I don't disagree to that Paul but there are times when JCBs are well out of harms way (and out of the way of a potential freak occurrence).

Obviously, but F1 has been pushing this too far recently in the quest for un-broken up races and today it bit them.
Also, any time one appears to gather up a track (or marshals are on track like Hockenheim) it's an intensely worrying time for the viewer, at least IMO, and that's not something I view as part of the entertainment I tuned in for.

I watch to see cars and drivers combat each other on track, watching Marshals being put in harms way just so the racing can continue unimpeded isn't part of the entertainment for me.

So this is why proper investigation and analysis is needed instead of emotional knee jerk reactions. Every circumstance is different. Today we saw a repeat of something that transpired 20 years ago but there has been occasions before and after where a similar set of circumstances resulted in zero issue.

TBK- · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:35 pm

codename_47 · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:35 pm

kals wrote:

codename_47 wrote:

kals wrote:

I don't disagree to that Paul but there are times when JCBs are well out of harms way (and out of the way of a potential freak occurrence).

Obviously, but F1 has been pushing this too far recently in the quest for un-broken up races and today it bit them.
Also, any time one appears to gather up a track (or marshals are on track like Hockenheim) it's an intensely worrying time for the viewer, at least IMO, and that's not something I view as part of the entertainment I tuned in for.

I watch to see cars and drivers combat each other on track, watching Marshals being put in harms way just so the racing can continue unimpeded isn't part of the entertainment for me.

So this is why proper investigation and analysis is needed instead of emotional knee jerk reactions. Every circumstance is different. Today we saw a repeat of something that transpired 20 years ago but there has been occasions before and after where a similar set of circumstances resulted in zero issue.

It's not so much knee jerk as noticing a trend for a couple of seasons now of the FIA pushing it and it finally coming back to bite them in the rear today.

stick500 · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:37 pm

all you guys are discussing the SC aspect of this, but I have a feeling that the open cockpit of F1 cars may also come into a few discussions within the motorsports world in the coming days

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see some variation of a top fuel dragster/super-modified type roll cage on either IndyCars or F1 in the coming years

canopies, to me, seem to be a non-starter

kals · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:39 pm

codename_47 wrote:

kals wrote:

codename_47 wrote:

[quote="kals"]I don't disagree to that Paul but there are times when JCBs are well out of harms way (and out of the way of a potential freak occurrence).

Obviously, but F1 has been pushing this too far recently in the quest for un-broken up races and today it bit them.
Also, any time one appears to gather up a track (or marshals are on track like Hockenheim) it's an intensely worrying time for the viewer, at least IMO, and that's not something I view as part of the entertainment I tuned in for.

I watch to see cars and drivers combat each other on track, watching Marshals being put in harms way just so the racing can continue unimpeded isn't part of the entertainment for me.

So this is why proper investigation and analysis is needed instead of emotional knee jerk reactions. Every circumstance is different. Today we saw a repeat of something that transpired 20 years ago but there has been occasions before and after where a similar set of circumstances resulted in zero issue.

It's not so much knee jerk as noticing a trend for a couple of seasons now of the FIA pushing it and it finally coming back to bite them in the rear today.[/quote]

No just no. Let's not get into finger pointing and accusations of blame. Yes there are some obvious things we're all agreeing on today but to suggest trends and similarities is like comparing chalk and cheese.

codename_47 · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:39 pm

stick500 wrote:

all you guys are discussing the SC aspect of this, but I have a feeling that the open cockpit of F1 cars may also come into a few discussions within the motorsports world in the coming days

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see some variation of a top fuel dragster/super-modified type roll cage on either IndyCars or F1 in the coming years

canopies, to me, seem to be a non-starter

I've seen this discussed around the net a bit

That would be the definition of knee jerk tbh. F1 is an open cockpit formula. (and open wheeled too) Anything else isn't Formula 1

That's taking things too far. If the tractor wasn't there JB would've had a fairly minor accident like Sutil did....so it's what he hit that should be looked at first.

Jason · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:45 pm

Throwing it out there,

Yes it was getting wetter but how do we know Jules didn't slow down for the double waved yellows? Sutil already confirmed that he saw double waved yellows whilst his car was being recovered.

Something the FIA will look at I'm sure if they can get their hands on the telemetry.

He could have contributed to his own accident.

Will probably get flamed for saying it, but I'm sure many of us has thought it.

spekktrum · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:47 pm

WARNING:
https://twitter.com/Alessio_DeMarco/status/518746123557949440/photo/1

stimaro · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:50 pm

Ayrton S. wrote:

stimaro wrote:

Very odd and creepy to see that guy with the black overall and Senna helmet on the scene.

Maybe it's the driver of the Medical Car?

No, that's Alan van der Merwe. He's the one with the blue helmet checking on Sutil.

siggy · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:50 pm

The problem is the tractor and an F1 car is able to go underneath it. Install bumpers around it, or fences as long as a car cannot go underneath it, it's a major improvement. Sure, it would still have been a big hit, but not like this. This was a freak accident, safety cars don't prevent freak accidents.

Coldtyre · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:51 pm

Jason wrote:

He could have contributed to his own accident.

He most certainly did, this is a no-brainer, as nobody else was involved in the initial loss of control.

Sutil did say that with the darkness it had become difficult to see wet patches and puddles, and was surprised when he lost it. So the corner had become a gamble really at that point.

Still leave a slight probability of a mechanical though, remember Kimi 2001 at the same location. Eventhough suspensions are not as strained under the rain, they can break (Ralph Firman, Brazil 2003).

webbsy · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:52 pm

stick500 wrote:

all you guys are discussing the SC aspect of this, but I have a feeling that the open cockpit of F1 cars may also come into a few discussions within the motorsports world in the coming days

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see some variation of a top fuel dragster/super-modified type roll cage on either IndyCars or F1 in the coming years

canopies, to me, seem to be a non-starter

With the sheer amount of open wheeled races every weekend around the world in all levels of motorsports, the number of incidents involving a driver being seriously injured or killed from receiving a blow to the head from an errant wheel or debris are minuscule.

I dare say that if Bianchi had an enclosed cockpit around him, with the sheer force of that incident I would argue that there would have been a fair chance that he would have been decapitated, or impaled by the canopy.

James B · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:55 pm

Jason wrote:

Throwing it out there,

Yes it was getting wetter but how do we know Jules didn't slow down for the double waved yellows? Sutil already confirmed that he saw double waved yellows whilst his car was being recovered.

Something the FIA will look at I'm sure if they can get their hands on the telemetry.

He could have contributed to his own accident.

Will probably get flamed for saying it, but I'm sure many of us has thought it.

I don't think anyone has said he hasn't at least contributed to his own accident. All the drivers do that by getting in their cars to begin with. But to go any further than that - say, to entirely blame the accident on his mistake and overlook the obvious dangerous aspects leading up to it - is victim-blaming. He didn't deliberately lose control - it's an accident. Chances are (and I've seen this indicated by people elsewhere) that he was probably slowing down as much as all the other drivers out there

There's an obvious problem here with cars racing while a tractor is on the side of the track. Suggesting that's dangerous is not a kneejerk reaction - it's there, clear as day in front of us all. I see no downside to the idea that the safety car should be deployed when there's a tractor on the side of the track - I'm amazed that wasn't the case already. There's no debate here, as far as I'm concerned

If there is an issue to be debated, it's the FIA and the race promoter's decision to go ahead with the race knowing that the weather was going to be bad, and more generally, Bernie's insistence on races in the Far East starting so late in the day, given the known problems those races have had with weather and light since they started bringing it in. Continuing with known issues like this is essentially negligence

kals · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:55 pm

Here's a thought, why not follow how car retrieval is done in Monte Carlo? Almost every corner has a crane behind the barrier which lifts the car away from danger. The only risk that doesn't solve for is that it still puts marshals in potential line of fire. But what it does ensure is that a recovery vehicle isn't needed to go onto any part of the course. I'm sure there are some places where this may not work, thinking of the circuits and corners where there is massive run off.

BrainPain · PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:59 pm

It would most likely be expensive as all hell to install that on circuits, and probably not possible either on all tracks. There is no problem with the current tractors, as long as the drivers don't bolt past it in 200+ kph.

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2014 FORMULA 1 JAPANESE GP - SUZUKA

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