2017 F1 Random Discussion Thread

NVirkkula · PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:37 pm

Mika Kimi wrote:

With all respect to Hakkinen and all the other drivers from the mid and end 90's, I would have loved to see another driver like Hamilton, Vettel or Alonso challenging Schumacher in those years. Schumacher sometimes made the 90's drivers look like amateurs, but the grid back then wasn't as competitive as it is now (IMO).

Yes, let's all forget that 90s compared to today's F1 had:

- no tarmac runoffs
- no tec-pro walls
- no HANS
- weaker safety structures
- no modern computer designing and high-tech
- no pussying out when it rained
- V10s that made driving very demanding
- grooved tires that made car trickier to drive
- no simulator testing

So yeah, let's all believe that today's drivers just are the best that there's ever been. In a way they are, they all have personal trainers, the Max Verstappen's and Lewis Hamilton's era kids started racing when they were just kids and they went school that were built to karting tracks, their sports classes were racing related. Schumacher's and Senna's era drivers had to start later and in less professional ways until they were grown ups.

So while 90s drivers didn't have the luxuries that this generation of drivers have, they were still very tough bunch. Back then you needed to have a death wish or complete lack of fear to push your car right on the limits in Eau Rouge and then fine tune the car to make it faster but just barely controllable. Today the driver does some simulation laps, the engineer set ups the car perfectly and the driver is already flat out right out from the pits because the car will work as simulated. And if you somehow get it wrong, you have huge tarmac area to use and the worst thing you could lose is a few tenths. In the nineties? Well...

Different world, different challenges.

Gaara · PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:45 pm

Scary to see how forwards Zanardi is in that car.

micha · PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:02 pm

Gaara wrote:

Scary to see how forwards Zanardi is in that car.

Looking at that and several other crashes of that Era and its just damn lucky only Ratzenberger and Senna lost their lives.

It wasnt without reason people said in those days that F1 was so safe no-one would ever die in a car ever again.

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:28 pm

90's F1 had some transition after the departure of the dominant drivers from the 80's and the death of Senna, Schumacher was talented but wasn't the only one. I guess he is seen as the best by far because his rivals at the time didn't matured to get consistent results like he did, the one that was closer to him was Hakkinen and even him wasn't that consistent, as McLaren had to get a good gap in 1998 and had some good time while Schumacher was out

if other good drivers from those times like Barrichello, Panis and Fisichella had gotten better opportunities in good teams (as Barrichello could had signed with McLaren or Williams back then, dunno why it didn't worked out), they could go for the title

but anyway I like the look of the mid 90's cars (1993 to 1997) before they reduced the width and made grooved tires. were quite a challenge to setup and race

NVirkkula · PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:33 pm

Funny thing about technology and Zanardi crash.

The video is in Finnish, but it's from 1993, probably week after the Belgian GP.

On the video the commentator says that "according to Lotus engineers, Zanardi suffered forces of 6G."

Zanardi's car punched a hole in the guardrail, similar fashion as Räikkönen did in 2014 Silverstone, but in less spectacular way, recording over 47G and still walking away by his own. I think it's safe to say Zanardi in reality had even harder crash, probably well over 50G.

I can also remember how me and my dad watched the sports news when Zanardi's accident happened. Dad was smoking as it was a custom back in a day. He said something like "damn that Zanardi is lucky that these F1 cars these days can take any kind of crash and driver still lives." then he explained that they put him in a stretcher with neck bracelet so he doesn't get paralyzed if he has a broken neck. And as the coverage showed the car being lifted up on the flatbed, he was said that thanks to modern design, the F1 car will break down around the driver in the accident, during Keke's era it wasn't as safe as it is now.

These days my dad doesn't smoke, hasn't smoke for a good decade. And he isn't interested in F1 that much. I don't think it's coincidental. For him it's not as challenging and exciting as it used to be. But hockey is better than ever and that gets his attention.

I know it's an old saying, already, but F1 is too clinical. Here's a good example what it really means.

Mika Kimi · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:21 am

NVirkkula wrote:

Mika Kimi wrote:

With all respect to Hakkinen and all the other drivers from the mid and end 90's, I would have loved to see another driver like Hamilton, Vettel or Alonso challenging Schumacher in those years. Schumacher sometimes made the 90's drivers look like amateurs, but the grid back then wasn't as competitive as it is now (IMO).

Yes, let's all forget that 90s compared to today's F1 had:

- no tarmac runoffs
- no tec-pro walls
- no HANS
- weaker safety structures
- no modern computer designing and high-tech
- no pussying out when it rained
- V10s that made driving very demanding
- grooved tires that made car trickier to drive
- no simulator testing

So yeah, let's all believe that today's drivers just are the best that there's ever been. In a way they are, they all have personal trainers, the Max Verstappen's and Lewis Hamilton's era kids started racing when they were just kids and they went school that were built to karting tracks, their sports classes were racing related. Schumacher's and Senna's era drivers had to start later and in less professional ways until they were grown ups.

So while 90s drivers didn't have the luxuries that this generation of drivers have, they were still very tough bunch. Back then you needed to have a death wish or complete lack of fear to push your car right on the limits in Eau Rouge and then fine tune the car to make it faster but just barely controllable. Today the driver does some simulation laps, the engineer set ups the car perfectly and the driver is already flat out right out from the pits because the car will work as simulated. And if you somehow get it wrong, you have huge tarmac area to use and the worst thing you could lose is a few tenths. In the nineties? Well...

Different world, different challenges.

I'm aware of the differences between those years and I get the point you're trying to make. However, the only point that I was trying to make is that the drivers who challenged Schumacher in the 90's (Hill, Villeneuve, Coulthard and perhaps Hakkinen) weren't, in my opinion, of the caliber of today's top drivers, despite the different circumstances they were in. I doubt Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton wouldn't be the top of the field in those years as well, but of course it's all very subjective.

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:58 pm

F1 cars today just shreds pieces of the floor and the wings. if it wasn't for Alonso crashes F1 would be an orphan of good hits

micha · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:46 pm

So, any thoughts on the new engine proposal for 2021?

I'm calling fail.

Jan Larsen · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:56 pm

*sigh* its the same fucking thing, just downscaled. The 18000rpm limit, are we gonna see anything near that irl? Its says there'll be tighter(!) fuel restrictions, how the hell does that coincide with higher rpm? Yes I know the displacement is lower, but still.

I'm extremely dissapointed. I was hoping anything OTHER than V6 turbo hybrids.

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:56 pm

still hybrid? what a joke

better turbocharge the old 2.4 V8 and let them be free

kals · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:01 pm

V6 turbocharged engines with driver deployed KERS. What's the problem?

NVirkkula · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:03 pm

Yeah, that's a huge FIAlure - again. Can't they just admit that going away from V10s was the worst move ever? No new manufactures joined for V8s, actually some left. Same story with V6s, no new manufacturers, one just happened to return and with catastrophic concequences that probably scared other manufacturers away for good. Now how is the slightly altered V6 turbo hybrids going to change that?

And how are they exactly going to make those engines rev higher? It makes no sense if they increase the fuel flow but not the maximum fuel load allowed. I smell refuelling comeback, which is awful news.

Here's an idea for real engine rules:

- 2,5 litre NA V10s or V12s.
- Max fuel per race 120 kg.
- No number of engine limits, Honda is already using over 10 units/car and one unit is estimated to cost even as much as 3.000.000$. There's no chance in hell any manufacturer could use more money with unlimited engines for 20-odd races per season.
- Limit the air flow in if the engines are pulling more than 1200hp.
- ERS systems still allowed, brake energy to electric boost.
- No Halo, it distrupts the air flow to the engine in high speeds, which could lead to engine explosion and potentially to a serious accident. So for the improved safety, Halo is not allowed to be used.

Jan Larsen · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:05 pm

Hybrid is a fantastic thing...in road cars. Not race cars. I dont give a crap about the hybrid aspect in racing, I want sound, rpm's, raw engines, not this muffled junk of a sound, MGU-H this, MGU-K that, ERS etc, I dont give a crap about it! It may be relevant (to an extent) for road cars, but I dont care! In a perfect world we'd be watching V12's screaming along, making 1000HP, or V10's at 20.000rpm, but thats not realistic. V8 on the other hand, can be build fairly cheap (for F1 standards) and they sound good if allowed to rev properly. Yes they're irrelevant to road cars (mostly), but again, I dont care.

LucasWheldon · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:12 pm

yeah F1 should be for those who can floor on the gas longer before a challenging corner, with no worries with fuel, tires and all that stuff

if they wanted to develop economic hybrid engines for a better future on roads then it's better to start the Mobil Economy Run for road cars

codename_47 · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:39 pm

Go watch your classic races, that era isn't coming back

While there's still frustrating elements in the new engine package, there's also a lot to look foward to as well
KERS returning, and not just being reset every lap this time, will make the races a lot more tactically interesting, and in a way that will hopefully result in on track battling.
Saying that, they'll probably save it all up for a 2 lap undercut in the pit stops and it'll be less conducive to wheel to wheel racing knowing how F1 works

It will all count for squat though if they don't agree to reign in the downforce levels at the same time, otherwise we'll be stuck with the more processional racing we've seen more often this season

As to those that demand a return to a V12/10 era....good luck with that.

micha · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:29 pm

I'm not expecting the V12 to return but I dont see this proposed idea bringing in new Manufacturers. Worse, I can see F1 ending up with only 1 or 2. If Honda dont fix their problems, they're out. If Mercedes keeps winning they will eventually call it a day. Renault surely will temporarily quit F1 again some day.

Jan Larsen · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:50 pm

Paul, there's noone here demanding the V10/V12's back, we all know thats unrealistic, but we dream for them. But you cant honestly say you prefer the current PU's over basically anything normally aspirated?

RtN · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:00 pm

Tobi Gruner for AMuS reporting that Mercedes (and others?) don't like the proposal.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... 87534.html

Speedworx · PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:15 pm

RIP F1

codename_47 · PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:02 am

RtN wrote:

Tobi Gruner for AMuS reporting that Mercedes (and others?) don't like the proposal.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... 87534.html

There are still rumours buzzing around that Merc are out after 2018, at least as a full works team, so this could be the excuse they need to push the button on that one

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2017 F1 Random Discussion Thread

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